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  #26  
Old 03/28/2004, 03:06 PM
Wee Man Wee Man is offline
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I have kept frogfish for about a year now and no they are not venemous they just look like it. infact there is a real nice thread going under the reef discussion forum all about them you guys should stop in its pretty interesting.

BTW an angler fish is the same thing as a frogfish
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  #27  
Old 03/07/2005, 09:49 PM
Peter Eichler Peter Eichler is offline
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A little bump to serve as motivation to start working on the list again... Still open for suggestions.

Thanks,
Peter
  #28  
Old 03/08/2005, 10:22 AM
mikefish mikefish is offline
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Well, after another year my Moorish Idol is now 18 mos. in captivity. Still fat, still growing. But I must be an incredibly skilled reef keeper and he will die any day now regardless.
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  #29  
Old 03/08/2005, 02:47 PM
Peter Eichler Peter Eichler is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikefish
Well, after another year my Moorish Idol is now 18 mos. in captivity. Still fat, still growing. But I must be an incredibly skilled reef keeper and he will die any day now regardless.
Good to hear he's doing well and hopefully it continues that way. I think a big part of it he has a very large tank with lots of little bits to pick at from the liverock and corals. Sadly for every story like yours there are propably thousands or Moorish Idols that don't make it past their first year of life in captivity
  #30  
Old 03/08/2005, 02:53 PM
Crusty Old Shellback Crusty Old Shellback is offline
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There are several people here on RC who have MI's that are over a year old.
Also I have had 4 long nose hawk fish and I have never had one jump out of the tank nor have I ever heard of one jumping out of a tank.
I've also kept a clown gobie years ago with no problems. He lived for several years in the reef tank before I got rid of the tank.
Same with the mandrin dragonetts. A lot of people are keeping them and some are even breeding them.
I also beleive that garabaldi's are illegal to collect. I think the only place they are found is off the coast of Calif.

Maybe it's time to do a serious update to your list and maybe do some research on the species before posting a list such as this.
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Last edited by Crusty Old Shellback; 03/08/2005 at 03:06 PM.
  #31  
Old 03/08/2005, 08:51 PM
Peter Eichler Peter Eichler is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by blown63chevy
There are several people here on RC who have MI's that are over a year old.
Also I have had 4 long nose hawk fish and I have never had one jump out of the tank nor have I ever heard of one jumping out of a tank.
I've also kept a clown gobie years ago with no problems. He lived for several years in the reef tank before I got rid of the tank.
Same with the mandrin dragonetts. A lot of people are keeping them and some are even breeding them.
I also beleive that garabaldi's are illegal to collect. I think the only place they are found is off the coast of Calif.

Maybe it's time to do a serious update to your list and maybe do some research on the species before posting a list such as this.
If you had read the post you would realize that once Humdrop/Clow gobies make it past their first couple weeks they seem to do fine. However I've seen huge amounts of them die off after importation, often well over 50%. If that a price you're willing to pay to keep them in your aquarium, because it's not one I am.

Same goes for the Moorish Idol, when I owned my own fishfood company I had one that lived for over 2 years, big freaking deal I say. The amount of them that actually live that long is incredibly small, I've seen how they fare on the wholesale end, at the LFS, and then in the home aquarium. We should be ashamed as a hobby that this fish is even still available to us. Sure some of us can give them a fighting chance but in general the people that buy them are just looking at them as a disposable decoration.

I've seen and heard of dozens of longnosed hawks jumping from aquariums. I'm not saying people shouldn't keep them in the least since they're quite hardy, just saying that people should be aware that they're known to jump and should take precautions. Could my experiences be a freak occurence, I suppose... But when you say you've had 4 and none of them have jumped doesn't make me inclined to not caution people that they can and are known to jump. After seeing many thousands of fish come through wholesalers and the LFS the two that I find are the best escape artists are Longnose hawkfish and Tilefish, I've seen any other fish dried up on the floor like I have those two.

As for the Mandarins, they're under the heading of best left for experienced hobbyists. I don't really know many people that would disagree with that... They usually require live food when newly introduced to captivity and often only thrive where there is live rock present. They also react poorly to disease treatments and I don't know of many newer hobbyists that don't somehow manage to get some sort of parasite outbreak in their aquarium. I simply don't see it as a fish that any beginner should have unless they start out with a larger reef aquarium and understand the dietary requirements. I all too often see it as a fish that people new to the hobby add the their tanks because of how odd and beautiful they are but have no idea that they can't just throw some frozen brine in a tank and expect it to live. I always had wonderful luck with Madarins, but they were in 75+ gallon reef tanks and they were fed live food early on in their captivity.
  #32  
Old 03/08/2005, 09:10 PM
GW Shark GW Shark is offline
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Sharks should be moved to the "need very large tank" category. Most small/medium sharks are relatively easy to keep given the proper space, sufficient filtration, and good water quality.
  #33  
Old 03/09/2005, 01:13 AM
Peter Eichler Peter Eichler is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by GW Shark
Sharks should be moved to the "need very large tank" category. Most small/medium sharks are relatively easy to keep given the proper space, sufficient filtration, and good water quality.
I see your point, but what home aquarist has an aquarium large enough to do it. I'd venture to say that even a 700 gallon tank isn't going to be enough for all but a few species of shark. But I will move it to the other section and make a special note. Thanks for the suggestion.

Ike
  #34  
Old 03/09/2005, 09:03 AM
mikefish mikefish is offline
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Perhaps it's inflammatory to say this, but I am becoming of the opinion that this is a pointless thread. No not because of the MI still being on it, but because of the reasoning behind most of the fish being on it. You think that a lot of Moorish Idols die for every one that lives in captivity? Think about blue damsels, just as an example. Poor little beginners fish. Ever seen a dealer's tank full of them? How many do you think live to an "acceptable" age, whatever that is? Even if the percentage of "success" is higher than with MI's, which I doubt given who buys them, on a numerical basis I'm guessing many times more of them die in tanks. Are they less important than MIs?

But if you've gotten this far, my real point is that ALL fish should come with some sort of disclaimer. This list, for the most part, just arbitrarily picks fish with perhaps some special requirements, like size or type of tank, need for a cover, whatever, and says they shouldn't be kept. Heck, even jellyfish can be kept with the right kind of setup. And the right kind of setup is needed for damsels too, just because it's a more common 'baseline' setup, doesn't mean that plenty of beginners can't meet the needs.

It would be far more useful to put together this list of fish giving their "special" care requirements. But then you would have the basis for a nice book on fishkeeping.

That's it. Rant off.
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  #35  
Old 03/09/2005, 09:38 AM
Crusty Old Shellback Crusty Old Shellback is offline
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I'm in agreement with Mikefish here.
I actually participated in a thread here on RC about MI's and finally got a wholesaler to admit that he had more blue tangs die in his tanks than MI's. Even though the tangs are imported on a daily basis and are seen as easy fish to keep, there are more of them dying in the wholesalers tanks than MI's. Why? who knows.
But his response was that he knows they will die in a customers tank. Similar to what you are saying. Dosen't make sense to me unless you are tracking each and every MI you sell to know it's outcome.
There are several people here on RC who have kept them longer than 2 years. As well, there IS a wholesaler who has been keeping them and doing research on them for the past 10 years. I'm not saying they are easy to keep as they need avery varied diet to survive but to blatley throw out that they should be left in the reef is absured, unless you want to throw everythging else back in the reef and just look at pic's.
If you ever spend time diving, you will see a lot of MI's out in the wild. Some fish just have special needs more so than others. As with ANY selection of animals you wish to keep, you should do your research first and RC is a good place to start.
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  #36  
Old 03/09/2005, 06:21 PM
Peter Eichler Peter Eichler is offline
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I don't totally disagree with what you guys are saying. A lot of what you're saying sums up why this hobby often disappoints me and makes me feel guilty. That was a large part of the initial motivation for this list.

Do multiples of Blue tangs die an early death in the hands of aquarists, retailers, and wholesalers, absolutely. But give them a decent environment and they can thrive, at the same time do the same for a Moorish Idol and they more often than not die from slow starvation and/or other mysterious factors.

Keep in mind this was supposed to be a list for beginner to intermediate aquarists. It would be better if it listed the specifics of each species mentioned, however I wanted something that could be used as a quick reference and thrown in a purse or wallet. I was often frustrated when I went to the LFS and some guy was selling a Manadrin to a customer for their 30 gallon tank full of dead coral skeletons and damsels, or I'd see beautiful nonphotosynthetic corals lined up one after another knowing full well they were going to someone that hadn't the slightest clue what they were getting themselves in to. That was another part of my motivation.

The list I admit is in need of some organization and is a bit dated, I started it on aqualink some years ago, then it was published in a couple newsletters and some aquarists and even fish stores were using it. It's certainly not perfect, but my hope was that it might keep someone from buying that fish they were getting bad advice on from their LFS, or maybe the LFS would get some pressure from their customers if they were being irresponsible with their buying. It ended yp here because I wanted to be able to finish it off and get some more input on it. While I may have disagreed with some of the advice I've received, that by no means makes it unappreciated.

Perhaps you think this is a pointless thread, but my feeling is that if it keeps just one or two inexperienced hobbyists from buying a fish they are probably incapable of keeping alive then I think it has more of a purpose than many of the threads on these forums.
I know for fact that it's done that from responses I've gotten in the past and I hope it continues to do that.

The sad thing to me is that even on this site which is filled with a plethora of information and advanced aqaurists threads like "I just bought this, what is it and how do I care for it?" type of threads are still very common. It's also sad that this section of the forums isn't very popular, it seems many people could care less about the ethics of the hobby and simply look at their aquariums as a neat decoration. Then on top of that you've got some more advanced aquarists that insist on buying difficult species to challenge themselves, sometimes it's a good thing but often I just want to scream just leave it in the freaking ocean. I know I did it years back, I bought Goniopora, various nonphotosynthetic soft corals, difficult fish, etc; It was stupid and egotistical of me.

Since you brought up diving... I have been diving but have a friend that makes several trips around the world to go diving and makes it to Hawaii at least once a year. He also keep aquariums and has commented to me how sparse many of the fish around Hawaii and other places are getting compared to years ago. We have a very destructive hobby here, if you've ever been to the Phillipines you can see one of the worst examples of how destructive it can be. In recent years we've made some nice strides to be more responsible but this hobby still has a long long way to go before it's no longer considered destructive to the natural environment. I'm just trying to do something to help, even if it is considered "pointless" by some.
  #37  
Old 03/09/2005, 06:22 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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OK here is my thoughts on this. The list of hard to keep fish is accurate, should everyone get a moorish Idol? no. Are mandarins hard to keep? it depends. Do long nose hawkfish jump? I had many and they all died that way. But then again what people fail to realize is that "all" the fish that we buy for whatever reason die in our tanks. Some sooner some later but unless you are breeding fish to release back into the ocean (and I do not think anyone is) we are all killing fish. Is this a bad thing? Maybe.
But we do not kill fish on purpose because first they are expensive and second that would be stupid. I think that in time most fish will be bred commercially and few will have to be collected. I myself keep Idols, mandarins, hawkfish, seahorses and many others but I no longer keep fish just to have a "pet". I experiment to try to find out the secret. Anyway, just my thoughts.
Have a great day.
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  #38  
Old 03/09/2005, 06:52 PM
Peter Eichler Peter Eichler is offline
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Fish To Be Avoided: (fish with incredibly low survivability in aquaria)

Moorish idol
Regal angelfish
Rock beauty
Bicolor angelfish
Genicanthus sp. angelfish
Centropyge multifasciatus
Holacanthus venusta
Most Anthias
Clown tang
Clown sweetlips
Pinatus and tiger teira batfish (batavianus)
Orange spotted filefish
Most butterlyfish (except those listed below)
Ribbon eels
Cleaner wrasses
Twinspot goby
Sleeper gobies (Valenciennea sp.)
Tilefish
Rays
Bicolor parrotfish
Princess parrotfish
Blue and Red parrotfish
Grunts
Anampses spp. wrasses
Leopard wrasses (Macropharyngodon spp.)
Pseodojuloides wrasses
Tassled filefish
Jacks
Drums
Trumpetfish
Remoras
Chambered nautilus


Fish Best Left For Experienced Hobbyists:
(finicky nature, parasite prone, specialty feeders, require specialty tanks or threatened species)

Catalina gobies (coldwater species)
Garibaldi (coldwater species and protected)
Trunkfish (box and cowfish)
Clown and Gumdrop gobies (once established a good surviver with less boisterous fish)
Radiata lionfish
Fu manchu lion
Dwarf zebra lion
Anglerfish
Mandarin dragonet (requires large amounts of live food typically)
Most large angels (require large aquariums and often specialized feeders)
Lamarck’s angelfish
Acanthurus sp. tangs (ich prone)
Kole tang (ich prone)
Chevron tang (ich prone)
Most other tangs except Zebrasoma and Naso sp. (ich prone)
All butterflyfish (except vagabond, longnose, Heniochus, golden, pebbled, Klein’s, lemon, auriga and racoon, which need large tanks)
Sea horses
Seadragons
Pipefish
All anthias
Blue chromis
Wild-caught Bangaii cardinalfish (threatened)
Longnose hawkfish (jumper)
Octopus
Cuttlefish
Porcupine pufferfish (very disease prone)
Fairy wrasses (Paracheilinus and Cirrilabrus spp.)
Dragon wrasse
Red coris wrasse
Red sailfin blenny
Striped blenny
Scooter blenny
Sandhopper
Jawfish (require tanks set up with their needs in mind)
Undulated triggerfish (unless housed by themselves)
Convict tang (very aggressive)

Fish That Require Huge Aquariums (200 gallons or more):

Sharks (require much larger than 200 gal., Nurse sharks can grow to 14ft. long!)
Most groupers (especially panther groupers)
Parrotfish
Snappers
Naso spp. tangs (however, they can be slow growers)
Moray eels (large species)
Garden eels
Soldierfish
Orbi and spade batfish
Twinspot wrasse (Coris aygula) (beginners take special note of this one)
Flounder

Venomous Species:

Stonefish (can be deadly)
Lionfish
Rabbitfish
Scorpionfish
Coral cats
Bluering Octopus (can be deadly)

Inverts To Be Avoided Or Better Left To Experts:

Non-photosynyhetic corals and gorgonids (sun polyps, carnation, devils hand, etc.)
Christmas tree worms
Goniopora sp.
Feather stars
Basket stars
Crown of thorns (duh )
Linkia stars (poor survival until acclimated)
Many wild small-polyped scleractinian corals that are not frags
Sea apples
Sea pens
Giant Xenia
Sea slugs and nudibranchs (very few exceptions)
Flame scallop
Anemones (see below)
Bright yellow anemones {dyed; most anemones have no business being in reef aquariums and should be placed in specialty tanks)
Harlequin, clown shrimp (specialty diets)
Camel, mechanical shrimp (not for reefs)
Elegance coral (recent poor survival)
Red serpent starfish
Tubipora musica (organ pipe, usually hacked off from a larger colony)











Made a few quick changes, if a moderator happens across this please replace the original list with this should you be so inclined.
  #39  
Old 03/24/2005, 02:22 PM
DitchPlains2 DitchPlains2 is offline
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Personally

And take a look at the tank I used to have! I have since upgraded to a much larger system, in fact 2 larger systems. I bought friggin Nemo, not from the movie, but I was online, becuase I am an online junkie. I do scuba, I do snorkel, I have been surfing for nearly 22 years. I participated in the Surfrider's foundation to help coserve my local beaches on Long Island, by helping map certain beaches, and tide areas. I also participated in kepping the Piping Plover(rare sea bird), during a few summers, whilst rich ***** Hamptoners drove their cars and walked straight through our guarded off Plover sites. Anyways, not tooting my horn by no means, just saying I am no schmuck! I researched my Nano Cube, and I bought two SI Perculas. Some Soft corals, etc... I Have lost and it goes:
Yellow Fiji Leather (parasite) if I new it was a yellow NUDI then as I do now, would have saved it.
Green Leather, no clue, cam half dead from Etropicals
Torch, I killed this, high ph spike I incorrectly mixed Kents Superbuffer
RBTA's 2 of them, duhno I know their supposed to be hardy, but they would just move to the back and refuse to eat ( I had 96 watts pc) plenty for that species.
2 Chromis died during rock n sand transfer.

BTW not all in my nano also bought a 18g via aqua

1 Bali Slimer, same PH Spike.
Current Tanks 60g cube in process of construction (2 Phoniex 14k 150des)
1 18 g via aqua,
1 12g nano cube, houses crabs, cbs, and rock

My point for all my stupid info is this:

I have killed a good number of reef creatures since starting this hobby, being a surfer, and a part time conservationist, I have to say I feel guilty, and ****ty about it. It was however, all part of the learning process. I believe this list, and websites like this, will help save future loses. Yeah, I know eventually everything will die, but isn't it better to keep 1 fish for 2-5 years, then buy a new fish every couple of months because your ignorant on what it takes to keep it, and its survivability rate.

I loved Fenner's book The Conscienscious Marien Aquarist
really opened my eyes.

Diving this past Jan in Carribean also helped a lot, seeing these fish in theri natural enviroment will awaken your eyes to what it means to give these fish a decent home. Bigger is better fellas...lol ok m2 ****ty 2 cents. Thanks for the list, sure others will thank you too.
  #40  
Old 04/06/2005, 07:46 AM
spamin76 spamin76 is offline
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Four fish not on the list, but ones I think should be are those who require huge aquariums -> Queen Triggerfish
And those who should only be kept by advanced aquarists -> Undulate Triggers, Clown Triggers, Blueline Triggers.

You are probably asking why I am suggesting such hardy, easy to keep fish
And my answer is this - few aquarists are prepared to deal with the aggressive tendencies of these fish long term. Most aquarists can buy a 2" baby clown trigger and let it grow, but once it hits 8" they don't want it any more - the fish is at this point too big and too aggressive. Most of these fish are best kept by themselves in a tank all their own and more often than not this will just not happen. People buy these fish thinking that they are suitable for communities, and once the murderous rampage begins people are either unable or unwilling to keep the fish. They tend to pawn them off and take them back to the store(which doesn't want them - because who really wants a 2' trigger fish that needs to be kept by itself and will kill any tank mate?).

Unless you are prepared to offer a triggerfish a tank of it's own, particularly one of these guys above, you should not buy them - the chance of them killing tank mates is too high, especially in the average size tank these are all kept in, which in most cases is debatably too small.
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  #41  
Old 04/06/2005, 07:10 PM
billblass_44 billblass_44 is offline
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how about red groupers? what can anyone tell me about them?
  #42  
Old 04/06/2005, 07:20 PM
technoshaman technoshaman is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by billblass_44
how about red groupers? what can anyone tell me about them?
Do you have a species name? I can think of c. miniatus - Miniatus grouper and vtail grouper are both reddish. Vtail gets to over a foot, forget what miniatus grows too. Both bulletproof fish like most groupers but they get realtively large. Consider what previous poster said about large triggers.

Had a vtail a while back, awesome fish.
  #43  
Old 04/07/2005, 01:59 AM
xnikki118x xnikki118x is offline
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Peter,
I think your list is very informative. I don't think this topic is pointless; I view it as a very straightforward, basic guide for beginning and intermediate aquarists.

Everyone has valid suggestions, especially about adding more detail ie why the particular fish should be avoided. But I like the generality of your first list--it's a very basic guide, a quick reference, and I believe it will help guide people in making more responsible decisions as to what they should try to keep in their tanks.

I believe you should make a much more detailed list, including the arguments (for lack of a better word) that long-nosed hawkfish are very hardy fish, but they are known to be jumpers and so just make sure the tank has a tight-fitting lid; or that certain species of lions are venemous but can be successfully kept as long as you don't touch them, and if you do, it'll be like a bee sting; or that most--if not all--triggerfish can be kept with tankmates as younger speciments but will absolutely, without a doubt need their own tanks as they grow and thus should be avoided.

My long-winded point? Just make two lists! Your extremely generalized one, and one explaining in detail the reasons for the generalized one. The first one serves your purpose greatly of being used as a quick reference or something to keep in your purse or wallet to refer to, while the extended version could be accessed to answer more direct questions about the actual specifications and "why shouldn't I keep this fish?" questions.

I'd be more than willing to help you if you think this is a good idea. I'm definitely not your expert by any means--more of a low-level intermediate at best--but I can probably help put things into perspective so people will get it. [This huma huma is adorable when it's young, and none of your other fish will fit into its mouth, YET, but it will absoluetely need a 200 gallon tank as an adult with NO other tankmates. If you like fish with teeth and you want to keep it in a reef, consider a royal gramma basslet.] Hah...like I said, I don't have a fantastic array of knowledge and even less experience, but maybe I can help with something.

In any event, I think you have a great idea here and I think you should stick to it. Whether others think so it not, it will help (and has helped!) many people with their livestocking decisions.

-- Nikki
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  #44  
Old 04/07/2005, 07:58 AM
spamin76 spamin76 is offline
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I am a bit frustrated I guess because many triggerfish make it on the list of the first fish an new hobbyest should keep - but such lists generally fail to mention how big they get, how aggressive certain ones can get and such. I don't think a trigger belongs on the first fish list like damsels and such probably do.

I hate seeing the oh, my clown trigger is too big and mean now, time to take him back to the store...

happens way too often.
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  #45  
Old 04/08/2005, 12:28 AM
xnikki118x xnikki118x is offline
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That's a very valid thing to be frustrated about, spamin, IMO. I think that's why we should help to develop lists like this one, and circulate them as much as possible. The more people who are aware that they shouldn't get a clown trigger in the first place, the better!
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us, has entered into the make-up of our character and of our thoughts, as well as our success."
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  #46  
Old 04/08/2005, 09:00 AM
spamin76 spamin76 is offline
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I don't think there is anything wrong with getting a clown trigger... if you know you are more than likely buying a time bomb that will most likely need to be kept by himself in a fairly large tank. If you are ok having a 180+ with just a CT in it, go for it... but most people are not willing to do that. Personally I am ok having a big single trigger tank, especially for a Titan or a Queen Trigger... but I don't think most of the people that buy them are.
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  #47  
Old 04/09/2005, 09:13 AM
coralGoodie coralGoodie is offline
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How about Coral Beauty? would you recommend this in a reef tank?
  #48  
Old 04/11/2005, 01:32 PM
billblass_44 billblass_44 is offline
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the red grouper I'm asking about is part of the sea bass family it is not a V-tail or what I see as the traditional hobbist red grouper I bought this thing from a local pet shop and was wondering if anyone has had one and if they could tell me a little about it
  #49  
Old 04/11/2005, 02:37 PM
Crusty Old Shellback Crusty Old Shellback is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by coralGoodie
How about Coral Beauty? would you recommend this in a reef tank?
They, like any pygmy angel, they seem to be hit or miss. I've had three of them in my reefs with no porblems. I'm on # 3 right now and so far so good. I got him from a fellow RC member who has had him for 3 years with no problems. My last one died unexpectidly after 5 years but I never had a problem with him either.
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Old 04/13/2005, 05:45 AM
EmergencyDpt EmergencyDpt is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2005
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Thanks for your list. I have to say that I saw a multi banded pipfish today in a lfs and fell in love with it. Will your list keep me from getting one? No. However it does give me pause to think whether or not my tank is ready for one NOW. It's people like you that really help aquarists become more responsible.

Ok, so can you give me some tips on keeping this beauty?
 

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