Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community Archives > Marine Fish Forums > Anemones & Clownfish

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #26  
Old 01/27/2006, 12:19 AM
oama oama is offline
Vegetative Protoplasm
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,526
Frank
Well and good, but what if you knew that the F0 of snowflakes were "normal" A. ocellaris? No "traits" on them at all? Like Fishboy stated, I feel clownfish don't follow the recognized rules of genetic inheritance when applied to barring/coloration. It is an area that is under investigation, by several labs/peoples, but all the questions have yet to be answered.
__________________
Biology is the only science in which multiplication means the same thing as division.
  #27  
Old 01/27/2006, 01:35 PM
Siapin Siapin is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: South Coast Metro (Santa Ana)
Posts: 651
What is it about clowns that they are different from other families and genera that they don't comply with the norm?

Is there some kind of unique genetic variability that they have that sets them apart from other fish?

I'm kind of confused by some of the comments so far. I might be in over my head, so can someone let me know anything about some kind of special circumstances when it comes to breeding these things?
__________________
"There's more motion in the ocean."
-Leon Phelps

[img]http://i10.tinypic.com/48f4i1s.gif[/img]
  #28  
Old 01/27/2006, 02:10 PM
maww maww is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 268
If I remember correctly, I saw a thread not too far back discussing misbarring in captive bred clowns. The gist of it was that bars are formed at a couple of different ages during clownfish development, and that environment can affect bar formation at each of these stages. So it could be possible to produce the exact type of misbarring you wanted if you were able to appropriately control environment through development. Did some searching and found the thread:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...ght=misbarring
__________________
Mark
  #29  
Old 01/27/2006, 02:32 PM
Siapin Siapin is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: South Coast Metro (Santa Ana)
Posts: 651
That doesn't necessarily mean that the frye will have the barring you want. I dont think the environment is going to change the genetic makeup of the barring. That would be called evolution, and (although I think it is false) if it was true, it would take many many generations to cause the barring to be in the ideal formation/color/etc.
__________________
"There's more motion in the ocean."
-Leon Phelps

[img]http://i10.tinypic.com/48f4i1s.gif[/img]
  #30  
Old 01/27/2006, 02:48 PM
Frank Mularo Frank Mularo is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: South Euclid, OH
Posts: 89
Quote:
Originally posted by oama
Frank
Well and good, but what if you knew that the F0 of snowflakes were "normal" A. ocellaris? No "traits" on them at all? Like Fishboy stated, I feel clownfish don't follow the recognized rules of genetic inheritance when applied to barring/coloration. It is an area that is under investigation, by several labs/peoples, but all the questions have yet to be answered.
I think if the pattern of a clownfish is dependent on environment and genetics, it's even that much easier to get what you want. All you have to know is the environmental conditions that give you a greater proportion of a trait you want (such as wide/broken/missing bars), start with a pair that shows a trait you want (I would suppose if you wanted to produce something like these snowflake clowns, you would try to find and pair up two "normal" fish with somewhat wider bars), then backcross slected offspring with the parents or each other under the conditions that favor your desired phenotype.

If someone's selling them, someone figured out how to make them, right?
  #31  
Old 01/27/2006, 02:59 PM
maww maww is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 268
no, environment won't change the genetic makeup of the fish. But that doesn't mean that phenotypic outcome (how you look) is controlled 100% by genetics. If that were the case, every frag of a given coral would have the same coloration and growth form in every tank. We all know that isn't true. And according to the experiences of a few people in the thread I sited, barring can be affected by rearing conditions- that is, if you rear one clutch from the same parents under different conditions you can selectively see different misbarring. I'm not trying to say that it is always the same for every frye each time, just that a component of bar formation is responsive to environment. That may be why you see so few "snowflake" occellaris- even if environmental manipulations during development are just right, you don't see the same misbar patterns coming through on all frye. If the snowflake color morph were a simle genetic trait, all or most frye from a clutch would show the pattern. Their scarcity suggests otherwise.
Perhaps it is a combination of the two in this case, and TMK ain't talking.
__________________
Mark
  #32  
Old 01/27/2006, 02:59 PM
Frank Mularo Frank Mularo is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: South Euclid, OH
Posts: 89
Quote:
Originally posted by Siapin
That doesn't necessarily mean that the frye will have the barring you want. I dont think the environment is going to change the genetic makeup of the barring. That would be called evolution, and (although I think it is false) if it was true, it would take many many generations to cause the barring to be in the ideal formation/color/etc.
Environment can definitely change the genes that you pass on to your offspring. That's not what is being talked about here. Some genes require some sort of outside force to become active or inactive. The function of certain genes is regulated by environmental forces. However, if you don't believe in evolution, the point is moot for you, anyways.
  #33  
Old 01/27/2006, 03:01 PM
Frank Mularo Frank Mularo is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: South Euclid, OH
Posts: 89
Quote:
Originally posted by maww
That may be why you see so few "snowflake" occellaris- even if environmental manipulations during development are just right, you don't see the same misbar patterns coming through on all frye. If the snowflake color morph were a simle genetic trait, all or most frye from a clutch would show the pattern. Their scarcity suggests otherwise.
Perhaps it is a combination of the two in this case, and TMK ain't talking.
Or nobody has dedicated that much time to trying to produce them.
  #34  
Old 01/27/2006, 05:39 PM
Siapin Siapin is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: South Coast Metro (Santa Ana)
Posts: 651
If there are two odd colored clowns (snowflake in our case), then does that mean that their frye will have that same odd coloration? Or is that just merely a coloration based on phenotype?
__________________
"There's more motion in the ocean."
-Leon Phelps

[img]http://i10.tinypic.com/48f4i1s.gif[/img]
  #35  
Old 01/27/2006, 06:30 PM
MarinaP MarinaP is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 2,738
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mularo

If someone's selling them, someone figured out how to make them, right?
Maybe not. Pure luck?

Look, we are speculating about the outcome here, and speculation has never been a scientific method. Let's give breeders some time to figure it out and leave guesses (and wrong info) out of the breeding process.
__________________
Marina
  #36  
Old 01/27/2006, 06:37 PM
Fishboy42 Fishboy42 is offline
1 clown short of a circus
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: East TN
Posts: 1,043
We could sit here and argue until the clowns come home, but I think the problem here is that we don't actually KNOW enough about clown genetics and the histories of the varieties available. Hopefully some of those studies oama mentioned will help us to better understand this when/if they are published.

As far as the mis-barring, all I know is what I have experienced myself--that I can take a batch of clowns from the same pair, split it in two groups, and deliberately grow one half "normal" and one half "misbarred," which suggested to me at least some environmental component to barring patterns. There is a limit to how much of the striping pattern I can change (that head stripe is hard to get rid of on ocellaris, I have a bunch of o's that look like tomatoes!), but I'm always experimenting...
  #37  
Old 01/27/2006, 06:38 PM
Fishboy42 Fishboy42 is offline
1 clown short of a circus
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: East TN
Posts: 1,043
Sorry Marina...posted at the same time--at least we share the same sentiments.

-Matt
  #38  
Old 01/27/2006, 06:39 PM
imbuggin imbuggin is offline
Moved On
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: chicago
Posts: 1,504
snowflakes

I read through and could have missed it. There is one and only one place breeding snowflake clowns. They are in England. So far very few are around and nobody else has
a producing pair that I know of. A pair runs about $500 and your LFS may be able to order them. Here is one more picture.
  #39  
Old 01/27/2006, 09:40 PM
Frank Mularo Frank Mularo is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: South Euclid, OH
Posts: 89
Quote:
Originally posted by MarinaP
Maybe not. Pure luck?

Look, we are speculating about the outcome here, and speculation has never been a scientific method. Let's give breeders some time to figure it out and leave guesses (and wrong info) out of the breeding process.
Why not discuss it? What harm is there in that? If we're not fish breeders, we can't talk about the process? Please.

First off, I'm not speculating about any outcome, I'm discussing how it's likely done. Secondly, it looks to me like they've alraedy figured it out and are looking to cash in. Good for them.

Look, it's not rocket science. Breeding for desired traits is something people have been doing with plants and animals for a thousand years. If you like your clownfish mostly white, shell out the exorbitant amount of cash they're charging for these things. You aren't getting anything all that unique, IMO.

Now, cross two different species of clownfish to make something completely new, and that would be something.
  #40  
Old 01/27/2006, 09:57 PM
Fishboy42 Fishboy42 is offline
1 clown short of a circus
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: East TN
Posts: 1,043
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mularo
Why not discuss it? What harm is there in that? If we're not fish breeders, we can't talk about the process? Please.
I think we should just be careful how it is discussed to make sure that people aren't misinformed. Discussion is fine, but speculation that is interpreted by others as fact could be dangerous.

Quote:
Breeding for desired traits is something people have been doing with plants and animals for a thousand years.
Probably more like 10k years The problem is that we've only been working with clowns for a few generations.

Quote:


Now, cross two different species of clownfish to make something completely new, and that would be something.
This phenomenon has been reported on RC several times. One of note is the tomato x ocellaris cross. Also maroon x ocellaris, ocellaris x percula, and frenatus x melanopus, among others.
  #41  
Old 01/27/2006, 10:18 PM
Frank Mularo Frank Mularo is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: South Euclid, OH
Posts: 89
Quote:
Originally posted by Fishboy42
I think we should just be careful how it is discussed to make sure that people aren't misinformed. Discussion is fine, but speculation that is interpreted by others as fact could be dangerous.
Excuse me, but how exactly is speculation dangerous? Questioning and hypothesizing is the basis of learning.

Where's the tinfoil hat icon?

Quote:
Originally posted by Fishboy42


This phenomenon has been reported on RC several times. One of note is the tomato x ocellaris cross. Also maroon x ocellaris, ocellaris x percula, and frenatus x melanopus, among others.
Link to any thread? I'd be interested to see a pic.
  #42  
Old 01/27/2006, 10:20 PM
MarinaP MarinaP is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 2,738
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mularo
Why not discuss it? What harm is there in that?
Discussion equals presenting scientifically proven facts, first hands-on experiences, referencing scientific literature and such.

Speculation equals referencing one's first cousin's twice removed opinions, uninformed personal guesses, gossip, etc.
__________________
Marina
  #43  
Old 01/27/2006, 10:27 PM
Frank Mularo Frank Mularo is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: South Euclid, OH
Posts: 89
Quote:
Originally posted by MarinaP
Discussion equals presenting scientifically proven facts, first hands-on experiences, referencing scientific literature and such.

Speculation equals referencing one's first cousin's twice removed opinions, uninformed personal guesses, gossip, etc.
I was unaware this was a scientific forum where we had to present published sources or have done everything we discuss. Is that rule on the home page?
  #44  
Old 01/27/2006, 11:11 PM
Fishboy42 Fishboy42 is offline
1 clown short of a circus
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: East TN
Posts: 1,043
Please notice that I didn't say speculation was wrong (as you say, can be a good thing, and as a researcher I hope that you understand why (notice my occupation as well...)), but that speculation that could be misinterpreted as fact was probably a bad thing (you wouldn't publish in a peer-reviewed journal (or here I should hope) anything as "fact" until you had something to back it up). Sharing of ideas and experiences is what makes this website great, but we should make sure to qualify our statements so as not to misinform.

Interesting thread started by JHardman on why we won't be seeing "designer" clownfish and clowns developed through artificial selection anytime soon:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...ghlight=hybrid

I'm surprised that you didn't find any information on the boards since you asked this question a while back:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...ghlight=hybrid

BUT...there have been some new pairings and juvenile pictures shared.

Links to hybrid clown information you requested:

frenatus x ocellaris: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...ghlight=hybrid

frenatus x melanopus (no pictures in this thread, but a friend and I will be sharing some of our own baby pictures when they are old enough
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...ghlight=hybrid

P. biaculatus x A. ocellaris:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...ghlight=hybrid

For more pics of these, go here:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...ghlight=hybrid

Not captive bred, but a possible wild P. biaculatus x A. frenatus:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...ghlight=hybrid
  #45  
Old 01/28/2006, 12:06 AM
oama oama is offline
Vegetative Protoplasm
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,526
Asking questions is good. Making wild speculations is not.
There is a difference.
As an example...
"Are they back breeding/inbreeding these fish to get Snowflakes?"
"They are inbreeding the fish to produce Snowflakes."

The former is an inquisitive question. The later wild speculation.

From the history of remarks about these fishes here on RC, there tends to be much more of the later. And, in fact, that, TTBOMK is wrong.

Only one pair produces this variant. No offspring have been noted as being spawning as of yet. So that eliminates inbreeding. Also, the parents are "Normal" A. ocellaris. As in that they show no signs of extra white. So, selective breeding is ruled out. Only a low percentage of the offspring are Snowflake. This is TTBOMK.

From my personal experience of pairing/spawning/rearing clownfish, I have found that they do not follow what is "normal" genetic traits as far as coloring/barring is concerned. Yes, misbarring can be induced. You have to understand the process.

Barring starts with the head bars, then the mid bar and finally the tail bar (in most cases, speaking of A. ocellaris/percula). Mostly, all this occurs during the larval stage. If conditions are right (aka bad), this process can be interrupted. AIUI, the process is run genetically, but the process can be interrupted to produce mis-barring. Genes are turned on to produce the white bars. But if they are interfered with, the process is not completed or never turned on.

As all fish/fry in a clutch mature at different rates, this makes it very difficult to produce a high percentage of a desired mis-barring. Thus the vast variation, if this happens.

One must also take into account that the vast majority of wild clown fish spawns do not survive to settle out. The percentage of survival is vastly greater in a captive environment. So, you would expect to see variations that one does not see in the wild. Often mild deformities that would be lethal in the wild do survive in a hatchery. Namely, missing operculum. Which has been seen through out mariculture. From clownfish to redfish (a food/gamefish).

I have no experience with spawning Snowflakes A. ocellaris, as they are only produce from England. I do have various experience with other variants such as Naked A. ocellaris and Picasso A. percula. And I can say that genetics play a much more major role than "induction". Though, as stated before, these fish do not follow the regular "recognized" rules in inheritance. Or if they do, it is above my head. At this point in time, I would say that we just don't know enough about the process. White stripes, extra or misbars, are a phenotype (an outward expression of the genes). We just don't know enough about the process in this family.

Stepping off the soap box....
__________________
Biology is the only science in which multiplication means the same thing as division.
  #46  
Old 01/28/2006, 12:32 AM
Fishboy42 Fishboy42 is offline
1 clown short of a circus
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: East TN
Posts: 1,043
Thanks oama, very helpful.

I did pick up a pair of Naked clowns--it will be interesting to see what their offspring look like if I am ever that lucky...

I know someone will ask
TTBOMK = to the best of my knowledge
AIUI = as I understand it
  #47  
Old 01/28/2006, 09:32 AM
oama oama is offline
Vegetative Protoplasm
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,526
This thread is drifting far from its original focus, but hopefully, some will find this information of interest.

One thing I forgot to add to my last post. The extra barring is thought to be the result of the signals to turn on the barring pigmentation going out of control. Starting early and/or not being shut off at the right time.

Think of it as if the fish is scanned from head to tail very slowly. Or slowly moving down a assembly line with a white spray paint at one point. If the fish is 100 units long... The signal to turn on the white pigment goes something like this...

Signal On at 27
Signal Off at 30
Signal on at 48
Signal off at 52
Signal on at 78
Signal off at 80

What is not know is what controls these signals. Or even what those signals are. The signals have been shown to be interrupted by environmental factors. But the additional firing/signaling has not been shown to be effected by these factors.

As with most of these fish, they have not really been inbred/back bred/selectively bred all that much (if at all). So not enough information is out there as to know what the F2 or greater will look like.
__________________
Biology is the only science in which multiplication means the same thing as division.
  #48  
Old 01/28/2006, 10:26 AM
Frank Mularo Frank Mularo is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: South Euclid, OH
Posts: 89
Quote:
Originally posted by oama
Asking questions is good. Making wild speculations is not.
There is a difference.
As an example...
"Are they back breeding/inbreeding these fish to get Snowflakes?"
"They are inbreeding the fish to produce Snowflakes."
Number one, you cannot convince me that speculating about breeding clownfish is a bad thing or "dangerous" in any circumstance.

Number two, my original statement was that an intrepid breeder could probably produce something like this easily. I was asked how that could be done and I explained how it could be done. Nowhere did I say "This is how the people selling snowflake clownfish made them." I said they must have figured out how to make them since they're selling them.

Just because these particular folks aren't specifically pairing fish and then crossing the young to get the desired patterns (with or without some form of external pressure) doesn't mean that it can't be done that way. Face the facts, man. That's the way it's done with every other species of plant or animal that's been produced by humans since it's been done.

Last edited by Frank Mularo; 01/28/2006 at 10:43 AM.
  #49  
Old 01/28/2006, 11:03 AM
traveller7 traveller7 is offline
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,697
Folks seem to have their opinions, and discussion of such opinions is within the rules. The issue with conjecture in a "authoritative" medium is that the conjecture is later treated as fact and obscures the truth. Welcome to the internet.

Some on this thread have crossed the line by using profanity and launching personal attacks. Neither are within the User Agreement or within the stated mission of Reef Central.

Let's try to stay on topic, within the rules, and accept that fact none of us know everything about breeding clowns, but there are a couple on this thread that are well beyond "hobbyist level" in clownfish breeding experience.

Thanks.
__________________
Scott
  #50  
Old 01/28/2006, 12:15 PM
BonsaiNut BonsaiNut is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 2,562
Here is a very easy experiment to demonstrate that environment impacts bar development in juvenile clown fish.

Take a group of juveniles (just post larval stage) and split group in half, taking photos of the two populations. Place the two groups in two different environments - i.e. keep one group in a commercial breeding grow out tank, and take the other group and place it in a floating grow-out cage in someone's reef tank. Use the same food and feeding frequency if you can. Compare the two groups after a couple of months have gone by.

I have done this and come out with VERY different results where the two groups looked like they came from completely different parents. I don't have photos, but the group in the reef tank colored up much more quickly, had much more extensive black coloration, and had completed bar development much more quickly than the other group. (And some individuals in the first group never completely developed three bars).

Why? I don't know. It was too difficult to control the two environments so that you could only tweak one variable. One of the tests I had wanted to do at some point was create a dual grow-out tank setup so that you could run the same water, food, etc, and test different lighting, different foods, etc, individually to determine best results.

Just thought I'd add this to the discussion.
__________________
"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!"
- The Hobbit; J. R. R. Tolkien
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef Central™ Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2009