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#51
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Well said Kalare
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#52
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Quote:
Mar
__________________
We Raise Champion Bulldogs. |
#53
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For a more accurate comparison you should probably throw in a few dozen dogs as well.
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#54
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I've never liked the look of a tank like this, too gaudy/tacky. May as well have 80 of those plastic divers/treasure chests/skulls while you're at it. I wouldn't call it advancing the hobby as much as bringing back the old concepts that got this hobby going in the first place; basically a bare tank with the biggest, most colorful fish you could find, packed as densely as possible. I had thought this mentallity had been abandoned in favor of more realistic/natural setups, but I guess there are still a few people out there that think this is a good idea.
As far as the treatment of the fish goes, I think so long as the fish is physically healthy (at least so far as it is within your control), and eating well, you are doing right by the fish. If it is crowded a bit, oh well. Just because they are gorgeous does not mean that they are not still fish. I have caught and eaten more of their cousins than I will ever keep in a tank (don't get me wrong, I am absolutely fascinated and enchanted by reef animals, but I'm not going to lose sleep over the possibility of a hermit crab with post-traumatic stress disorder). I also think some people forget that living in the wild is no picnic either; just about everything out there wants to eat you, and no one is going to hand you your food. Survival in the wild (for every animal) is a constant fight and there are often more losers than winners. If we can provide a fish with a relatively cushy existence, then we should not have to feel guilty about it (I'd be willing to wager that the majority of dogs and cats would rather live in captivity than in nature, lol). Of course, as I said, this is all provided that you can keep the animals healthy, and unfortunately many people in this hobby are either too ignorant (whether willful or not) or otherwise not able to make this possible. I personally don't think this is possible (at least not in the long run) with seafood's particular setup, as you couldn't keep track of their eating habits if you tried (you would need a cloud of food for starters, and obviously no way to observe every fish), and there is too great a possiblity of an ich epidemic. If you can confirm that all of these fish are in good health, I will be impressed. However, you have to make this work for the long haul, which is something I don't think is likely to happen. I will however, continue to assume this is a joke until seafood provides some information about the care of these fish beyond just posting pictures and videos. It becomes very suspicious when you do that; it takes longer to post links to the pictures than to relate some personal experiences in keeping up with your tank. How hard is it to tell us what/how much you feed them, etc.? Sorry about the length of my post; it's been a while since the last time I looked in on these forums and I tend to ramble anyway, lol. |
#55
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Sorry for I haven't replied above questions. All right, let me tell you how I take care of my tank.
Main tank size: 72"Lx26"Wx30"H ---240Gallon 160LB aragonite reef sand(selected) 200LB reef rock(they were live rock before) Sump1: 28"x22"x20"--------53 gallon filter floss and Euro Reef CS12-1 (12"diameter x 6"high collect cup need to clean up every 3 or 4 days), Fluidized Bed Filter (600)/w Maxi-Jet 600 powerhead Sump2: 26"x22"x24"--------59 gallon 8 inches aragonite deep sand bed Aqua-clear powerhead with quickfilter for circulation and collect waste Pumps: Iwaki55 for return and runs 1/3 horsepower chiller and 57 watts Aqua UV. Another Iwaki55 for intank circulation, the custom main tank there are three holes in the bottom glass. The middle hole inhales water direct to the pump from two strainers, and the outlet form the pump puts water back on left side and right side h hole for the lower circulation. I used some rock to hide those strainers and nozzles. Tunze 6100 wave maker w/single controller creats 3200gallon/per hour current. Lighting: 2x6' 150w VHO whichs aqua sun & atinic white 2x96w PowerCompact true atinic blue 4x38w T5HO (2white, 2blue with 45 degree irradiate to the tank 2x28w T5HO(1white, 1blue) on the Sump2 3x 3/4w lunar-blue moonlight Lighting Hours: 08:00-19:00 Water change: Every10-14 days one quarter of total volume. Food: once or twice a day. pellets and frozen food(every other day) Pellet: Ocean Nutrition Formula1-----small and medium ,flakes (dry food) Formula2------small and medium,flakes green, red, brown dry sea algae HBH SuperSoft krill -------small and large Spirulina-----small and large Frozen food: Hikari: spirulina brine shrimp mysis shrimp squid ocean plankton blood worm mega marine angel(contains sponge) mega marine algae krill Ocean Nutrition: angel formula formula 1 & 2 prime reef All kinds of frozen food cut in small piece combine with kentmarine Zoecon, Garlic overnight in refrigerator before feeding. The secret: 1. Fluidized Bed Filter (600) already used 2 year before re-set up this tank, because I needed to move new house, so I sold previous fish and washed aragonite and rock(with a little bit bleach to make the brown algae gone), but i keep running this bed filter, that why i can speed up the cycle and add fish early. 2. Keep running Seachem copper 0.2mg/L, even sometimes ich attacks i always win. You don't see the coralline algae bulits up because cooper kills.(ps. 200lb rock were live rock in one and half year ago, last time i couldn't control velet and ick appears, so i decided to use copper, finally half of fish dead and nh3, no2 were keeping high, copper also kill live rock! FOTWLR is hard to control! after last experience, i won't keep fish with live rock. 3. I have 20 Gallon quantine tank, basic system as Rena XP2, Hang on fliter, heater and ice probe mini chiller. Every week I will buy 2-6 pieces of fish(depends on its size), wait 1 week if they well feed and healthly, i will transfer them to Sump2 and stay 1 week before i put into main tank. For the agression, most of time i put 3-5 fish into the tank at the same time(in the evening with turn off light), the existing resident will confuse or not concentrate to chase one fish, it will reduce the stress of the new fish. Hope a little information will let you know how i work with my seafood tank. PS. sorry for my English, i'm still learning the gramma and the strange words. |
#56
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I knew has many fish friends not to agree perhaps my this pisculture way and the manner, I am wrong, also can the new fish friend bring the negative influence, like this compares the standard pisculture way to surpass many times, slightly controls is not good can the entire armed forces not cover But stands in my standpoint, I really want in to have the area of competence to collect each kind of angel fish, the butterfly fish and the surgery long-tailed anchovy, moreover I because in the family the space cannot trade a bigger fish tank to satisfy my request, therefore I only can continue with this fish tank, asks each position to forgive me selfish and the treats fish as brutal.
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#57
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Hmmm, I was looking in your gallery. Can you please explain why if I keep hitting the right arrow above your photos, I get sent to other members photos.? I have never had this happen
__________________
AKA Kim Hardie.. |
#58
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The tang patrol cant touch you guy! I feel sorry for the little wrasse, and etc! As i see there is a lot of stress! And i bet they die everyday, OH WELL You keep some LFS Biz
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MSMAN |
#59
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I noticed that as well. At first I thought it odd that he had so many corals seemingly healthy with this type of fish. Then I realized that he must have dozens of screen names & many, many large tanks. WOW!
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#60
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My 5 year old girl always ask if there fish tanks in heaven?? This MIGHT BE ONE PERHAPS! THeres a lot of fish coming out of this tank in body bag, or on stretcher. YOU MUST HAVE REALLY GOOD JOB??
__________________
MSMAN |
#61
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And it brings out a question in my mind: Maybe we're doing it wrong all these time????
I have a Yellow Tang and a Tomato in my 125 G and all these buggers do is hide behind the LR all day while getting fat I've never seen the tang swim across the entire length of the tank... EVER. Maybe if I add 50 more tangs they will swim non-stop back and forth across the tank, and maybe that is better because it gives the fish more 'exercise' ?
__________________
Have Frags - Will Travel |
#62
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Quote:
...physical health and appearance is not everything. Behavioral differences in fish in small and larger tanks is well documented, not scientific, but well documented. This should be enough to lead anyone to believe that while fish may not be "happy" or "sad", they still behave most naturally with a decent amount of room to swim (those species that are used to this in the wild). Show me somewhere that keeping twenty billion fish in a tank can be successful long term with fish behaving normally and growing to their full potential and lifespans, then I'll change my mind. Until then, I don't think so... |
#63
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Quote:
Granted, that is an unlikely scenario, but it is just an illustration. I do not think a tank should be overly crowded as it will most likely have a negative effect on the health of the fish. However, if someone can pull it off, then who am I to say they are doing something wrong? They are just putting more fish into their little box than I am, and if they are still healthy in many years time, kudos to them. The difficulty is in maintaining that level of health, which is what I think we should be focusing on,and not on the size of the tank or how heavily stocked it is. My personal feeling is that this particular setup we are discussing either is currently not a successful one, or is soon to be unsuccessful. I think Seafood did overdue it by a bit and a half, lol. In any case, I think some of you can tone down the rhetoric a bit. You can't murder a fish, no court in the world would get you for that. You can say they are being irresposible, that they are being unecessarily abusive, but to essentially call them a murderer is just plain shrill (btw I am not talking about you kalare ). P.S.- As far as comparing fish to babies, though, it is not even remotely the same topic. Fish have nowhere near the mental/emotional capacity of a human being, not by a longshot. Of course humans need to have the absolute best mental and emotional care possible to be a complete person, and I agree it is heartbreaking that there are many people in this world who don't understand that. Last edited by TheGrimmReefer; 02/26/2006 at 11:43 PM. |
#64
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the mirage in Las Vegas used to do this... but i think too many fish died so now they just oversotck a lot more ugly fish than before.
wish i could do that.... money wise that is.... |
#65
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Quote:
Nobody here (at least not that I saw) called him a murderer, though if they did, that is a bit off base. You compare one overstocked tank to one with disease, this is a skewed comparison. Try comparing his apparently "healthy for the time being" tank to healthy large tank like many reefers on here...S. Weast comes to mind (Sorry if I spelled the name wrong). Yes comparing to people is a bit off base, but I decided to take it there because some people do not understand needs of animals and better understand when compared to humans... You keep comparing to the ocean, yet you are not taking into account territory ranges of fish. Many fish only patrol several square meters or less of area in nature. Cutting that in half is one thing. Cutting that in half and then making the fish share with 86 others is another. 2400 gallons is a stretch, as most fish that are lower in the reef, with the acception of large angles or butterfly will probably be well contained in this space if stocked properly. A clownfish will not care, nor will most wrasse. We can no be perfect in our endeavors to keep captive animals from the sea, but it should be our wish to keep them as comfortable as possible. You can not possible say that keeping this many fish in a small tank is doing so. Perhaps you are playing devils advocate here, but IMO this topic is not something of much debate. Like I said before, healthy physically does not mean totally healthy. Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it has to be done. You said this: "However, if someone can pull it off, then who am I to say they are doing something wrong?" -- To this, I say that you are a fellow hobbyist that has an opinion. We share a world on information with eachother, and He/She may take it or leave it. If they're going to post up on RC especially, with a topic like they have, they're asking to be judged IMO. Almost looking to show off I would say. I say they posed a situation for me to comment, then it is my right to give an opinion, and yours as well. They do not have to take it, nor do I have to force them to, but give it I will. To answer in short, if you believe they're doing something wrong, I think you sould say it, instead of playing devils advocate. It's perfectly fine, and like i said, if they didn't want our opinions, they shouldn't have posted "Crazy bio-loading with 86 fish." They very title is just oozing "look what I did I'm so special. They know it's "crazy" so what do they expect? |
#66
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*Where exactly do you think the German Shepherd came from? For us to have the German Shepherd, at some point a wolf had to have been put in an unnatural environment that made it a more reliable, loyal animal. In doing so, the German Shepherd sacrifices its ability to survive on its own, without human intervention. Thus in the grand scheme of things it is made weaker to ensure ultimate survival (Which do you think will go exctinct first, German Shepherds or wolves?). The same thing can and has happened with many species of fish; clowns, dottybacks, cardinals, etc. We would not have the domesticated dog without having put the wolf in an unnatural state, and we will not have domesticated fish without placing them in an unnatural state (granted fish are not dogs and some fish will never become domesticated, but there is really only one way to find out).
*I didn't want to single out the particular person, but I believe msman825 was dancing around that notion when he started saying things like,"there's a lot of fish coming out of this tank in a bodybag.." etc. *I don't like the way this guy is keeping his tank, I have said that repeatedly. There is no way those fish are going to be healthy for any length of time in there. The point of my illustration was to point out that I feel the health of the individual fish takes precedence over the size of the tank or how many you choose to place in your tank. If you can keep a fish perfectly healthy in a smaller tank (not everyone can afford large tanks, so for many this is their only option), then by all means I think you should do it if you want to. However, much of the time tank size and space are directly proportionate to the health of the fish, and thus they should not put a fish into an environment in which they do not stand a fair chance of survival. *I understand why you wanted to make this comparison, but I think it weakens your point when you try to compare fish to people, and it sometimes causes people to dismiss an otherwise valid observation. *True, the clownfish is an example of a fish that adapts very well to captivity. Why is this? It breeds successfully in the tank environment! That is the height of natural behavior: reproduction. The vast majority of species, however, do not breed in captivity very often, if at all. Tangs, angels, butterflyfish, etc. (as well as several smaller species), are not known for having a good track record of breeding in aquariums, no matter the size of the tank. Thus clearly demonstrating that we continue to fail to provide an adequate environment for these fish. As far as keeping fish comfortable... for clarity, my point is that if you can keep a fish physically healthy in the environment you provide, I believe you are doing your job. That does not mean that I think keeping 86 fish in a 240 gallon tank will accomplish that goal. It is a pretty strict criteria I am talking about. However, if Seafood comes to find out that 40 fish can be kept in that tank with each one living for many years (those that have long lifespans, at least), and be as physically healthy as they could conceiveably be in a larger tank, I think that is fine. But this is purely in theory, no one I know can accomplish this. My point was that if the only objection is that they are too densely packed, I would say it is irrelavent so long as they are physically thriving (and living long lives). I personally don't think a fish cares whether it thinks it has a lot of room or not, so long as there are no predators and it is well fed. That said, many fish absolutely need a lot of room to stay healthy. *To a degree I am playing devil's advocate, but I do think a lot of people here tend to forget that these are fish we are talking about and not people. We have a responsibility to be good stewards of these creatures, not necessarily to provide them with every conceivable comfort under the sun. I think we as humans should seek to provide them with all they need for physcial health, first and foremost. Within that boundary, however, I think people should be able to make the decisions they want as to how a tank's compostition is shaped. If they want more fish, they should get more fish (so long as no fish suffers physically from the addition). I think some people place more emphasis on the emotions of the fish than the desires of the human. You cannot prove to me that a fish has emotions. The only real means of measuring how a fish is doing is to analyze it's physical health. I do not believe they are capable of appreciating extra space unless it is a requirment of their physical well-being. They are not known for their intelligence, and I do not think fish are as "deep" (please pardon the pun, lol) as some people seem to think they are. (this is not directed at you in particular, kalare, I wouldn't say you really fit this category) *Mostly I agree with your last point. What I meant to say is that often I cannot keep fish as healthy as I would like (they do very well, but I think I can always do better), even when using generally "accepted" methods (I've got 6 fish in my 75 gallon tank, the largest being a female false percula clown) . If someone can do a better job than me, using more unconventional methods, then I personally can't find fault with their approach. That would be the point at which I would ask them for information as to how they accomplish what they are able to accomplish. Seafood has given me no indication that all of these fish are healthy, and that they will continue to be that way in the foreseeable future, and I have so far criticized Seafood's methods. You are right in that Seafood is open for criticism because of the title of this thread and the way this topic has been handled so far. Lol, "Crazy bio-loading" is not a phrase that inspires confidence in Seafood's methods. I think I've said enough on this topic, hopefully people understand where I am coming from. Thanks for your input, kalare, you've made some pretty good points. P.S. I'll try to cut down on the Devil's Advocate thing in the future, lol. Last edited by TheGrimmReefer; 02/27/2006 at 01:58 AM. |
#67
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long long time ago in my local, may be my father or grandfather's
generation, marine fish is very very diffcult to be kept in a tank, so people's only goal : keep more fish in a tank to reflect their wonderfull skill, even run copper daily to make their dream come ture ,ok , that is considerable. in fact ,every culture is evoluting. now, someone concerns fish's sex need,pairing up fishes ,let them enjoying making love everyday(like some strong flame angel) and so on. maybe oneday no people put marine fish in a "small" tank. |
#68
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dude, that is amazingly crazy.
i've seen tons of fish in small LFS stores who are there temporarily, i'm sure they'll survive for awhile. but that's crazy. |
#69
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Well said TheGrimmReefer
Mar
__________________
We Raise Champion Bulldogs. |
#70
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SORRY, To put it that way
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MSMAN |
#71
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It kind of reminds me of one of those tanks at the lfs full of feeder goldfish, except this one is prettier.
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Semper Fi |
#72
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Back in the days when dogs were domesticated, most people lived on vast spaces of land. I doubt they did it with 86 of them in a small house, nor do I condone the keeping of large dogs in apartments, I would never do it or tell someone not to, unless they posted on a board boasting about it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one to tell someone not to keep a purple tank in a 50...though I may not myself, I don't think that's too bad. But this tank is just ludicris.
You make good points and argue them well enough. I agree with you on some, and not on others, but hey, that's what this message board is all about. I guess what I'm getting at, and what you touched on is that having all those fish in that tank will never work long run. Those fish can't grow to their natural sizes or live their total lifespans (the latter I think being more important). If they ever get the chance to grow, their oxygen demand goes with it, I don't even know how it's possible to support all that BOD (biological oxygen demand) right now. The bacteria needed to support the fish grows as they do and they are like the black hole of oxygen. pH swings are or will probably be tremendous and stressful between night and day, simply because of BOD. That fluidized bed isn't helping the matter. A similar situation would be like someone keeping 20 goldfish in a 20g tank. Even if they lived for 5 years (which they probably wouldn't) I wouldn't consider it a success as goldfish can live for decades longer. Anyways, I think we've both made our points, and I respect you more for being civil in the matter. |
#73
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Seafood, is your tank in Vancouver or Hong Kong? If in Vancouver, where are you purchasing your fish (if you don't mind me asking)?
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#74
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One thing I have noticed in this discourse is the frequent use of antropomorphism. (wikipedia def: is the attribution of human characteristics and qualities to non-human beings) I think stocking densities should be based factors like water quality parameters, approximation of natural diet, documented conspecific and interspecific agression etc. To say that a clownfish is perfectly "happy" in a 30 gallon tank is a major stretch. To say that he is "fine" is the same stretch. I agree with GrimmReefer that it is impossible to prove that a fish has emotions. Every fishkeeper has an "emotional" link to their fish, the hobby, the equipment. Everyone has their own unique reasons for involvement in the hobby. Our emotional attachment to our fish should not become our fish's emotions. That said, we as hobbyists and humans have the innate responsibility to provide the best environment that we can. How you define "best" brings into play all sorts of socio-economic factors that I personally believe are beyond the scope of this forum. I have a very heavily stocked 58 gallon tank. In the last 10 days I have gone from 5 Green Chromis to 2 and I don't feel good about it as one of the 2 reamining has severe "bite" along his dorsal fin and will die soon.
I am planning to upgrade to a very large tank hopefully this spring / summer but it is an expensive undertaking and many design questions arise as you know. I have learned a very valuable stocking lesson and I will not replace the green chromis as there is clearly a competition issue. My guess is that it is a space issue as I have seen no hostility at feeding time. I am not certain who the culprit is. The only fish I have ever seen chase the Green Chromis is my Ocellaris clown. I am not condoning Seafood Tank's methods in anyway. I am a seafood broker however and plan to eat as much fish as I can in my life. PETA stands for People Eating Tasty Animals. |
#75
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JackRent-
This is a very anthropomorphic hobby for 95% of us & it doesn't do any good for the 5% of you anti-anthropomorphizing reefers out there to try & put things in perspective. Waste of time IMHO as we are generally aware of this but don't care.
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Marie So long, & thanks for all the fish! __________________________ |
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