my diy needle wheel dart pump

[spazz]

Originally posted by DC321
Alberto has the perfect test "tube" for this NW skimmer pump.

Maybe you can ship him the parts and he can be your test cell....and I can watch!

if you noticed energys post. i have a 1700g reef for a test bed. i think there is a total of 2200 to 2500 total gallons in his system. this is what i want to test this pump on. i think it would be awesome on his system.

[DC321]

But I can't see that one in operation in person....

I have followed a few of your threads. You are my favorite DIY'er.

I have a skimmer fetish.

[spazz]

Originally posted by DC321
But I can't see that one in operation in person....

I have followed a few of your threads. You are my favorite DIY'er.

I have a skimmer fetish.

thanks thats the highest complment i can get.

[spazz]

Originally posted by spazz
thanks thats the highest complment i can get.

the big problem i have is making these needle wheels. they take hours to build and you have to releive the pump housing to get it to fit in there. its huge! down the road we will se how things go. mybe i can make another one for some one. but not right now. it took me 6 hrs to build this one by hand. if i had a lathe and a mill i could build one in 3 hrs.

[kentrob11]

Hey- Can't wait to see how it works on the test bed....Would you be willing to specify whether it looks ore like an ocean runner needlewheel or a Sedra needlewheel? When looking at the stock impeller assembly, it looks like either could work...Just curious as to which way you went on that one...

[kentrob11]

BTW here's the site I was looking at before for Titanium rods...You mentioned before looking for something thinner...

http://www.alphaknifesupply.com/ti-rod.htm

[dhnguyen]

Try carbon fiber rods. You can get them in smaller diameter. Carbon fiber rods are very strong, light, and cheaper than titanium.

I'm extremely curious to see what the needle wheel for this look like.


D.

[spazz]

its based off the sedra's, but has a different design than the sedra's

[dhnguyen]

Originally posted by spazz
its based off the sedra's, but has a different design than the sedra's

well that's about clear as mud

[manderx]

i wonder if using thin titanium or plastic screws as the pegs would chop bubbles even smaller, with the threads acting as knives? or is there an absolute minimum size for bubbles?

[spuzio]

The impellar on the dart is about 10x larger than the impellar that the ocean runner or sedra uses. With it being that large it needs to be properly balanced or the pump will destroy itself from the vibrations alone.

[Whaledriver]

Try these for your disk
http://www.sculpt.com/catalog_98/abr..._finishing.htm

Cut the disk so that it resembles the pattern of the vanes in the Sequance rotor blades. It should then make foam at a low head preasure. I would go with a low and wide design also. You might try useing a rubbermaid garbage can for a prototype.

[spazz]

Originally posted by spuzio
The impellar on the dart is about 10x larger than the impellar that the ocean runner or sedra uses. With it being that large it needs to be properly balanced or the pump will destroy itself from the vibrations alone.

the impellor does need ballancing. it is not the easiest thing to build. as for design its alot different than any other curen design. i dont wqant to get into mydesign until sequence releases there design. i want to see if my design is better than theres. i think it will be. we will see though.

[kentrob11]

Heh....Looks like I'm not the only one with a FUBAR spell check :-P

[rufio173]

Scott,

Check your e-mail. You got some from me.

Peace,
John

[spazz]

well the test tank got a foot shorter and the pump got mounted lower in the tank. after the epoxy dries i will crank it back up with 2 air pumps mounted to the dart pump. then i will get some pics of it.
i need some one who can host a video. i want ot take a video of it starting up. then you can see how fast and thick the bubbles get. plus im hoping the bubble size comes out in the video. so if there is anyone who knows how to host one let me know.

[spazz]

well here is the pics of the new shorter test tank. its 5 ft tall. i had to cut a foot off the bottom of it. after getting it up and running i hooked a secon air pump to the dart needle wheel. that way i could findo ut the cavatation point of the pump. it can handle about 250 scfh. at 260 it shuts the pump down. the big problem with it right now is, i have a pipe on the outlet of the pump that goes almost all the way to the bottom of the tank. that pipe is causing the bubbles to break and join together. there is a fair amount of larger bubbles in the test tank. if i remove the pipe i have nice small bubbles. the other problem is when i get over 150 scfh it get real turbulant in the tank. all that air rising up causes some major turbulance to happen. i feel the optimal number you could expect out of a dart needle wheel would be 60 scfh with no air pump and 150 scfh with an air pump attached. you would need an air pump if you wanted to go over 3 ft tall and needed the pump mounted low in the body of a skimmer. with an air pump the hight dont matter. the other nice thing is the wattages. with both the air pump and the dart running its only 215 watts! it puts out as much as 6 eheim 1260's and pulls 100 watts less. i still want to see the numbers that sequencs pulls with there needle wheel. then we can compare numbers. i think this will be the winner. it would be hard to beat these numbers when your using a pump thats 398 watts to start with.

[dgasmd]

Very nice.

-I see in the pictures you are restricting the intake. Is that to prevent cavitation with the larger amount of air injected?

-Do you think the pump will work just the same if instead of using it like you have it one would plumb it the way it normally sits or sideways instead?

-Can you think of an easy way to put a 1.5" hole in a round tube? Uniseal?

This is pretty exciting project to say the least.

[kentrob11]

With a shorter tube, say, 30" tall x 12" diameter, would you think that the dart without the sweetwater would pull as much air or more than 4 Eheim 1260s? I'm loving this man-

[spazz]

to plumbing the dart to a round tube, i think it would be best to use a large tube like 15"-20" diam and that way it would be eser to glue the union on.
the valve is restricted because of the size of my impellor. its bigger than the sequence impellor. so it works the motor alot harder. i restrict it back so it draws less on the motor. i think the impellor needs to be a hare smaller so it dont have the drag on the motor.
as to a body size for this pump. i dont think this pump could work effectivly on a 12" tube. unless its 6 ft tall. and you would need an air pump to compensate for the head pressure. may be sequence will come up with a better design than mine. i dont know if they are using the sweetwater pumps to supercharge there pumps or not. i feel my way is the best way to do it because it gives you maximum air input to the pump and lowers the wattage draw of the pump.
in the end i think the skimmer body size will end up being 20" diam 3-4 ft tall and handle a system of 3000-4000 gallons.

the eheim pumps draw 26.48 liters per hour. so if you add the numbers together, my diy dart pump with a sweetwater pump supercharging the dart, you get the equivelint of 6 eheim pumps in air out put with 100 watts less usage in power.
i am basing my numbers from the deltec website. i dont know these numbers to be fact. i just assume they are close to actual output. i do know that any pump can and will have a different output due to molding variations and motor effecienty.

the numbers i got are like this.

eheim pumps-
1.96 watts per cfh
ocean runner-
3.00 watts per cfh
my diy dart-
1.43 watts per cfh (sweetwater power usage included in figures)
i dont have the numbers for the sedras so i cant compare them.

i feel that any pump can be supercharged (my name for it) but the little pumps would be easer to cavate due to there size. thats the benifit to the large dart pump. its so massive its harder to cavate. 2 or 3 cfh difference wont mater either way. but even a half of a cubic foot an hour more will cavate the little ones.
in this case smaller is not more effecient.

[kentrob11]

Hmmm.. I wish Sequence made a smaller, maybe 2000GPH external that would suit a smaller version of this project. Did you measure the air intake on the pump running without the sweetwater force feeding it?

[spazz]

Originally posted by kentrob11
Hmmm.. I wish Sequence made a smaller, maybe 2000GPH external that would suit a smaller version of this project. Did you measure the air intake on the pump running without the sweetwater force feeding it?

with the watter level just above the top of the pump it will pull almost 80 scfh. not very impressive considering you add the head presure to it and you can pump 200 scfh to it before it cavatetes.

the big problem i see is the output to the pump. it needs to be turned sideways so it will sit flat on the floor and pump streight out the sideinto the skimmer body. if i ever get the chance to talk with sequence about this that would be the biggest recomendation. make the pump housing so it can be rotated 90 deg to the side. i found that the masive amount of bubbles smashing into each other cause them to break and combine into bigger bubbles. i even messed around with the salinity levels to see the affects of lower salinity and higher salinity. it had no real affect on bubble size all the way down to 1.017 and up to 1.030

i think the goby might be an alternative pump to the dart. if its small enough and can be converted like the darts can. it might make a pump for the 12" skimmer tubes. only time will tell. i wish i could get one to test but i dont think sequence would do that. lol

[kentrob11]

I don't think I've heard of the goby- Is that a new one from Sequence?

[spazz]

Originally posted by kentrob11
I don't think I've heard of the goby- Is that a new one from Sequence?

they were supose to release it this year but something must have went wrong with that. it was supose to be part of the uno series pumps that were released this fall.

[kentrob11]

hmmm...I was kinda wondering how something like a Gen-X 6000 would stack up in a skimmer like I was mentioning before. 12" x 30" reaction chamber.....1587GPH- A pair of them maybe? I've done some looking around and I think the general concenses is that the Gen-X pull more air than the Sedras anyway. I spoke with one perosn who actually interchanged the needlewheels in the pumps and he said the bubble size was visibly the same between the two but the GEN-X pulled more air.