Long term success with a harem of bartlett anthias?

[SDguy]

I was just wondering who has had long term success keeping a harem of bartlett anthias. More than a year, with multiple females. I ask because I know several people on here have had most of their specimens turn male. When I had 3, two became male. I recently visited the Georgia Aquarium. Finally, I thought, I'd see a nice school of females with a few males. Well, the tank was all males. Every single one. Tail streamers and everything. My brother informed me that not more than a couple months before, that same tank had multiple small individuals with the males. So what's the deal? Note that the GA main reef had lyretails, pictillis, and squarespot....all with large healthy females.

[bradleyj]

That is strange, When I bought my 5 , they all were in the same group that came in together and were all very small. Now I have 4 males and 1 female.

[SDguy]

Hey Bradley...you were one of the people I was thinking of. All the ones at the GA looked like yours...really high foreheads, streamers, mostly pink. Do you have a pic of your female, BTW?

[zemuron114]

most that come in from christmas are males. probably 90% of them are a bright pink/purple with nice streamers. Maybe there isn't a way to tell between male and female? As in, they all look the same once full adults? and the juvies are just the half pink/yellow look....

hmmmmm....

[bradleyj]

Originally posted by SDguy
Hey Bradley...you were one of the people I was thinking of. All the ones at the GA looked like yours...really high foreheads, streamers, mostly pink. Do you have a pic of your female, BTW?

Hi Peter, I went through most of my pics and could only find one , it's an older shot taken a few months ago and not very good. I'll try to catch her on camera tonight.

[bradleyj]

Hi DJ, Mine were all the same size when I got mine and now there is a definate difference between my males and my female. She is only 2/3 the size of my males and mostly yellow. She rarely comes out from behind the rocks, and when she does, she is surrounded by all the males.

[SDguy]

Originally posted by zemuron114
most that come in from christmas are males. probably 90% of them are a bright pink/purple with nice streamers. Maybe there isn't a way to tell between male and female? As in, they all look the same once full adults? and the juvies are just the half pink/yellow look....

hmmmmm....

I was thinking the same thing! But, watching the behavior at the GA, it was pretty clear the bartletts were all male. I've seen the way a male bartlett interacts with a juvi (female?). The clamped tail, and funny swimming alongside...classic male/female anthias interaction. Nothing like that going on at the GA...just displaying and chasing.

Bradley...that's a nice pic..sure looks juvi/female to me. I wonder if it'll ever get as big as a male? Like the lyretails and other anthias I saw at the GA....many of the females were about the same size as the males.

[King-Kong]

First I got a trio -- all the same size. All 3 turned male.

1 jumped, and I returned 1 to the store. In exchange, I got 2 small (1-1.5" juveniles). So far the male is very aggressive in keeping them in line. I have had them for about 3 months now.

I'll let you know in a year if they turn :P

[Chooch1]

I have a group of 4 Bartletts which I've had for about 6 months. Two are what I would call supermales that were clearly males when I puchased them but they have since become more colorful and developed tail streamers. A third was a male in color at the time I purchased it but has not developed more intense coloration or tail streamers like the other two males. He also tends to stay to one side away from the other males and is dominated by one of the supermales but still appears healthy. The fourth is a smaller female, basically half pink and half yellow, and has remained clearly female for 6 months. I hope she remains that way. She shows no signs of changing at this point.

[zemuron114]

It is most likely due to the lack of a harem. In the wild im sure there are just hundreds to thousands of them with multiple males and multiple females. Maybe in order to keep a harem there has to be TONs of them for some to stay female. hmmmm

[SDguy]

Originally posted by zemuron114
It is most likely due to the lack of a harem. In the wild im sure there are just hundreds to thousands of them with multiple males and multiple females. Maybe in order to keep a harem there has to be TONs of them for some to stay female. hmmmm

Yes. Really, the point of this post, is to actually see real life success. I know I've recommended these anthias left and right for their hardiness, as have others...but perhaps their social structure plays a more important role in success or failure with them (not that having a bunch of more attractive males is failure )

[t5Nitro]

Here's what mine look like. I think I was shipped all of these (males) and you said they looked like 3 males SDguy. 1 of them is now gone for a while now from one of the other ones, but the two others seem fine together.

[bradleyj]

I couldn't get any shots tonight of my female, but I got a few nice ones of a couple of my males.

[SDguy]

Hey Bradley, I've always had the experience that the red tint on the otherwise white/light pink pelvic and anal fins comes and goes, depending on mood (excited/feeding, etc). Have you noticed the same?

[bradleyj]

Very much so. It seems later at night after I feed them, they get really excited and start sparring with one another, thats when the color really flares up. I can tell when they are just sparring for fun or if they really get seriouse and start fighting for real. Usually one will ends up hurt and has to recooperate for a week.

[just dave]

I had a group well over a year. Would still have them but the bottom of the tank cracked. Here is a picture of some of them with the male.

[zemuron114]

just dave - beautiful tank. Those are actually female anthias.. we have a winner!!!

So far know one has kept females longterm without them changing to a male. Males are prettier anyway

[SDguy]

Ding ding ding! Yes Dave, looks like a winner. What was the tank size, if I may ask?

[just dave]

48"x48"x24"

There where seven but I don't have a good picture with all of them. I had two males. The dominant male kept the other from coming out much and the subordinate male lived under a rock formation most of the time. After a few weeks I was able to catch the dominate male and in less 'n a hour the subordinate male was out and about riding heard like that's what he'd been doing all along.

[SDguy]

Eeek!, so only one person so far?

Great pics dave, BTW. Sucks that you lost them...actually, sucks more that your tank cracked

[jmaneyapanda]

I kept five in a heavily stocked 120 for a while. I bought all five from a LFS and they were all very small (1.5 "). One turned into a male and they stayed that way for about 2 years. When I got my 210, I put them in, and they all turned male, and started picking each other off, until now I have 0. Perhaps it was totally conincidental, but I think is does have to do with densities and heirarchies. In my 120, they females couldnt avoid the male. But in the 210, there was room, and I think biology defeats common sense. The "urge" to become a male was greater than the sense to stay a female and stay alive.

[SDguy]

Great info!

[Scuba Dog]

Is there any rule of thumb on stocking densitys for Bartletts? I am planing on stocking a group in one of my 180's late this summer. Just wondering what number is too small or to large?

[eaglesrx]

jmaneyapanda's theory makes sense. In Scott Michael's Pocketguide to Reef Fishes, the monograph for Bartlett's states that 5 or more females are needed for a harem. In addition, with more aggressive anthias (i.e. lyretails, bartlett's), you may have to crowd them like cichlids to keep the Bartlett's female. Probably why they stayed female in the 120. Of course, I'm not sure about Just Dave's case. Maybe the exception that proves the rule.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen a published statement on the minimum tank size for a harem of bartlett's. I've seen it with lyretails. Just seems like there's more info. on them.

Hopefully, this thread can keep going so we can all get some more insight.

[SDguy]

So far this info kind of fits with my observations. I know the common info is that lyretails are aggressive with each other, more so than bartletts. But to be honest (I've had both), my bartlett males were CONSTANTLY on the female...no physical damage...just constant "attention". My lyretail trio are pretty mellow comparatively. Male chases, displays to the females here and there...nothing unusual. Perhaps bartletts do require high densities or, alternateivley, small space to keep the harem.