The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[Insane Reefer]

You are correct, Rusty, for the JRM, atmospheric steam is used.
Adding the PC to the equation might change it to low pressure steaming, but I'm not sure about how much pressure a PC produces.

Since my space has been limited by my husband starting to rearrange the garage, then loosing steam (no pun intended, lol!), I have only been able to cast 2 or 3 rocks at a time, which is wasteful to steam in the oven, so I've been using what amounts to a "membrane cure" - basically sealing the new rock into plastic bags and putting them in a warm place...

Works like a champ Just takes a while...

[silence88]

ive been reading this thread for a wile but iam still confused a bit on makeing the rock, my plan is to make some rock now with the cooking methoed for my 75g then in the summer do it the slow way to get more stabel rocks for when i upgrade to a larger tank.
when you talk about sand in molding, mixing ect do you mean aragonite? can i just use sand blasting sand instead?
for cooking would it be better to use the sand salt cement method or is there a better mix? i like he salt cement only rock as it sounds simple but if the salt is realy hard to get out,
and when you say the "old school method" do you mean like on the garf site? or some other method?

sorry for the long post, but this is a long thread!

[Rustylugnuts]

I'll see If I can take a stab at this one.

when you talk about sand in molding, mixing ect do you mean aragonite? can i just use sand blasting sand instead?

Aragonite looks better and has (debatably) some buffering benefits but silica sand would also work fine.

for cooking would it be better to use the sand salt cement method or is there a better mix?

My guess is that the cooking would work with just about any of the mixes. I'm a couple weeks from finding out just how well the salt sand cement mix cooks. I don't forsee any problems.

i like he salt cement only rock as it sounds simple but if the salt is realy hard to get out,

If you can boil the rocks its pretty easy to get the salt dissolved.
I really like how salt sand cement rocks turned out in previous air cured batches. I used a bit of silica sand as an aggregate and you really don't see it in the rock. For the mold I used leftover rocksalt. The surface texture doesn't look quite as natural as LR or sand molds but IMO it results in more surface area.

As for the old skool, from what I've read its pretty much just rock made without the benefit salt. (correct me if I'm wrong). HTH

[Insane Reefer]

Hi Silence, Welcome to the thread!

For the most part, Rusty is correct.

Read this post, and it should answer most, if not all of your questions:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...2#post11058572

Salt is difficult to remove from steamed rock, IME. Not impossible, but it usually takes a day or two at the least, and most times takes longer. Boiling does help remove it quicker.

I personally cast into damp sand blasting sand - it bonds to the surface in such a way that you can no longer see it - which is also the case with actual aragonite sand, but aragonite is expensive to fill boxes or totes with. Most other sands are visible and do not look nice.

I don't like casting into salt because I have a little voice in my head that screams "detritus trap", but many folks have cast their rock this way, and had great results. So far that is.

If you can wait for like two weeks, I should have the mini rock sauna up and under testing. The mini rock sauna will take into account the new stuff I've learned, and produce stable (or as stable as you are going to get when you mix porous concrete and saltwater that is) rock. I'm just trying to get my hands on a pressure cooker, and funds are tight this close to Xmas past.

Anyway, if you have questions, feel free to post - someone will get to you

Happy New Years to all!!!

[Noise]

Insane,

how did you wind up building that mini sauna? I remember you were trying to get some way to make steam into a box or old refrigerator. Did I miss the results of that topic?

Or is that what the pressure cooker is for?



edit: ok I just scrolled back a page and I think I found my answer.

[Insane Reefer]

Hey Noise,

The MRS, or Mini Rock Sauna, will be a pressure cooker hooked to a feed line that hooks to the drain spout of a typical igloo cooler.

The temp inside the igloo needs to reach 160-170°F, but no higher, with a high relative humidity, and the temp needs to be maintained for at least 4 hours, but it may end up being a lot longer - maybe as long as 12 hours.

My dad contributed an old igloo for the project, now I need to get the PC - I found a tiny 4qt one at Wally-World for $20, but I think that will be too small for my later use on the deep freeze, so am waiting for the go to get the 6qt...

[silence88]

thanks insane
i think iam just going to use sand blasting sand for mixing and molding, aragonite is pretty expensive here and sence my tap water is hard and my tank will be a FOWMMLR i dont think any extera buffering will be needed, but also sence it will be a FO tank i realy whant the rock to look nice is there a mix that looks better or more natural than the others? and are you still useing OS in your mixes i think i read on the thread someware that it realeased phosphates or something or iam i wrong?

[Altpers0na]

ooo, a deep freezer...

it should be easy to get a broken full size deep freezer...

how much pressure are we talkin here?

[Altpers0na]

my father in law has a spare therapeutic tub, metal thing w/ some valves... , could add a lid easy...

[mmm55645]

Some of the rock I made last year was made incorrectly. I used volume instead of weight to determine amounts of materials.

The ratios(not by weight) were about 40% portland, 30% CC, 30% OC, and 33% portland 33%OC, 33% pulverised limestone.

I am not sure if these rocks should be discarded because of the incorrect procedure in determine ratios of ingrediants or if they are still functional, but at a much lesser rate.
I broke them apart and they are dense, but not so much so that they are solid. I really can't tell the difference between the inside of some dense rocks and pictures of real LR(I guess its more than meets the eye though).

Some of the rocks are dense intregrally, but are superfially porous.

I was thinking about just trying to use the rocks anyway and see what happens.

Do you think that the added density or any other negative effects from incorrect ratios will render the rocks ineffective and stop them from becoming LR?

Thanks for any advice.

[Rustylugnuts]

I went by volume out of laziness and had different batches turn out with different strengths. The first batch had several pieces that crumbled easily. The rocks that could be broken by hand were discarded (ended up being about half of them from that batch). The second turned out much stronger. I believe this was more due to overwatering or overmixing rather than volumetric measurements. I never really thought about it but in the lab we go by weight when mixing solutions maybe the rocks should be the same? (or maybe portland is forgiving enough that its not necessary)

[mmm55645]

I thought that we were supposed to go by weight instead of volume but I had made some rocks incorrectly already.

[impur]

I went by volume. I think mine came out great.

[salty joe]

Insane, I don't see why you need a pressure cooker. It seems to me that any pot with a good lid with a nipple, or small pipe, added to the lid would work.

Joe

[Insane Reefer]

Silence - cast in the blasting sand, but stop by a feed store and get some Calcium carbonate - you want the stuff used for "feed mixing", also called scratch sand or grit; they feed it to chickens - much better then the blasting sand, IMO, for using in the cement. And it is cheep, lol - $4 for a 50# bag.
I do use a small portion of OS to add texture, a handful per batch. The whole phosphate thing is anecdotal at best - if you worry about it, you can always find a bit laying around the bags at the feed store. Scrape some up and take it home. Test it for phosphates. Natural looking rock comes more from casting technique then from what you use to make it. Strictly speaking, I think the mix that makes the most realistic texture is probably just cement and sand, using a little salt on the outside, here and there to give a little visual diversity, but this mix won't make particularly good rock for filtration as it will tend to have a tight matrix.

Altpersona that sounds like a cool thingy to have. Could probably be converted rather easily, but think about this before you do so. Calcium precipitate will coat the interior and require a lot of elbow grease and CLR (or equivalent) to clean out. While I'll be the first to cheer on attempts at producing a curing chamber, that is a very expensive piece of equipment to use this way...
As far as pressure goes, well one can use no pressure, just steam, or ???
What I've posted is pretty much what I have on pressure steaming. Something around 150psi or more is used for high pressure curing. I know the little pressure cooker I saw at Wally-World for $20 says it goes to 10psi.
Feel free to PM me to talk about idea's, or better yet, post them here so others can contribute if they wish to.
Now run with it

MMM and Rusty, in the cement industry, they measure ingredients by volume. As Rusty guessed, concrete is fairly forgiving.
This is an interesting link about mixing concrete, but ignore the video:
http://matse1.mse.uiuc.edu/concrete/bm.html
And this picture shows about how dry the mix should be - though for our purposes, I recommend it just a hair drier than the picture shows it:


In a perfect world, the industry would use weight, as well as the metric system, but the problem with that is that aggregates all have differing weights. For example, if one uses silica sand and pea gravel, the weights on those items will be pretty high. Now say you wanted to use limestone sand and perlite. You would have a lot of perlite to make the same mass as the equivalent volume of pea gravel. So the industry, and hence the folks working in the industry, would have to know the conversions for weights on different aggregates. And then you get to the cement itself. "Cement" doesn't have a specific weight, per se. The stuff that makes up the clinker can vary from plant to plant, recipe to recipe - cement from Plant Z might weigh slightly more then the same volume of cement from Plant Y - so would you need less? Even humidity can add weight to a bag of cement. So to keep it simple, and because cement and concrete are fairly forgiving, they use volume to measure.

As far as your rocks go, if it is hard, use it. At least until you have made new rock that is better. Even the densest rock you can make, (the cow pats), will still provide some biological filtration. You can regulate it to the sump later on. Honestly, in terms of "good concrete", denser rock has a better ability to withstand the various chemical attacks that concrete in saltwater can face. Denser cement is made with a bit more water then we use, and they choose different aggregates and use a different ratio of cement to aggregate as well.

Now, MMM. Did you ever call Quikrete about the colorant, and how it will perform in a marine environment (safety-wise)? That stench you mentioned from the colored rock is the main thing that has me worried about your situation. If you haven't, I would seriously consider doing so. Based on the info about the product, I can't imagine it being bad for the system, though not great might be an answer - but that smell. Rust and blood both have a certain stench, and if I remember correctly, the colorant had a lot of iron oxide in it - the smell could be something as innocuous as the iron oxide sort of mixing with the calcium hydroxide and getting pulled out during the kure or it could be something else completely unrelated...

HTH

[Insane Reefer]

Originally posted by salty joe
Insane, I don't see why you need a pressure cooker. It seems to me that any pot with a good lid with a nipple, or small pipe, added to the lid would work.

Joe

Hey Joe, sorry I didn't reply - your post must have come in while I was writing my last reply, lol, and I didn't notice it.

You're correct, if one could find a pot with a tight fitting lid, and one had the ability to attach a nipple, this would work almost as well as a pressure cooker. The lid would have to be tight though, so that the steam only has one place to go - to the steam chamber - otherwise you might lose a lot of the steam to the leaks in an ill fitting lid.

Maybe you have suggestions on how to attach a nipple that most anyone could do?

[lowfi]

can the cement mix/ DIY live rock leach any chemicals into the tank aside from messing with your pH, like phosphates or something?? Does anyone have any full tank shots with DIY LR in it???

thanks!!!

sean

[Rustylugnuts]

A algae bloom is to be expected (not sure exactly why but I believe silicates and phosphates are to blame). A way to avoid this is to keep the rocks under low light for a while after its introduced to sw(not sure how long but I'm just starting to get lots of tiny coralline specks covering my rock under 1NO bulb fixture in a 20L running 24h w/ sporadic additions of reef advantave calcium). Also running GFO and/or macroalgae in addition to water changes to keep phosphates in check couldn't hurt.

[customcolor]

Originally posted by lowfi
can the cement mix/ DIY live rock leach any chemicals into the tank aside from messing with your pH, like phosphates or something?? Does anyone have any full tank shots with DIY LR in it???

thanks!!!

sean

how is this?




here is the pile on the left of the tank. atleast half of it is diy rock.

[lowfi]

Thanks everyone, that is awesome! so ive read the first 40 pages...WOW! a ton of information. I am going to be buying some stuff to try this tomorrow. Can anyone give me the quick essentials to what I need? OH I almost forgot, would you all recommend white portland I or the snow white colored grout?? Thanks a lot, I really appreciate it. Being a student I cant afford the real stuff, but I love this hobby too much to not have an empty tank

[Insane Reefer]

Welcome to the thread, Lowfi

Algae blooms are more to do with the calcium hydrates that the cement is made of. Ca(OH)2 (aka lime) has long been used as a soil amendment/fertilizer. Silicates (there are some inherent silicates in cement) may play a small role, as well as phosphates (which are not typically found in cement, so if present, suspect an outside source such as shells or water), but all three substances are generally consumed fairly quickly by the maturing system and don't tend to cause problems for more then a few months, if it ever becomes a "problem".
These are the only things that might leech into your system, and typically stop leeching within 6 months or so.

What you need depends on what "recipe" you want to use. You will need cement - you can use the grout but it has silica sand mixed into it already. Several have used grout and reported no problems. White portland will tend to be stronger and you can add the sand you wish to use.
Sand is really recommended, and if possible, something calcium carbonate based. Try a feed store for chicken grit/ scratch sand, for "feed mixing". This is an excellent and cheap form of calcium based sand.
You also might want sand to cast your rocks into - blasting sand (which is industrial quartz, aka silica sand) works like a charm, and doesn't seem to attract more algae or diatom than rock made with no silica sand, so it is more about preference, IMO, and it is a little cheaper to fill the boxes or totes you use to cast into. It also tends to blend into the surface of the rock, where the calcium based sands can be more noticeable. Many also use salt to fill the casting bins, so the choice is yours.
Next you need aggregates - salt, crushed coral, crushed shell and perlite are all considered to be safe, so use any or all that appeals to you in whatever combo you wish - just keep your cement to aggregate/sand ratio around 1:cement to 3-5: other (at least 1-2 parts of the "other" should be sand of some sort).

You will also need boxes or totes to cast your rock into, something to mix the rock mix in, drop cloths/sheets/plastic to protect surfaces, small hand tool for mixing the rock and a measuring device for the ingredients and rubber gloves to protect your skin.

This should be enough to get you started
If you have questions, feel free to post - someone will most usually reply

HTH

[salty joe]

OK Insane, for the cooker lid a hollow threaded tube like the ones used in light fixtures should work. Drill a hole in the lid, then screw a nut on both sides of the lid. Cheap and readily available. Maybe some epoxy to seal. A brick could also be epoxied to the lid, if need be.

[Insane Reefer]

Ok Houston, we have a problem...
Dear hubby brought me home an 8qt PC. Just to get an idea, I used the parts that it came with and hooked a clear vinyl hose to it - I knew it wouldn't work for long, the temp would warp the vinyl, but I wanted to see if this had any hope of working before destroying a perfectly good, new PC.

So everything is going as planned. Steam is ejecting and moving into the igloo, but after about 5 minutes, I notice that the hose is starting to fill with condensation, and after another 5 minutes the water accumulated has started to fill the hose.

So how do I fix this? I've thought of just adding a "t", with a feed line taking the run-off to a bucket, but there must be a better way - possibly one that brings the water back to the PC?

What would people suggest? I'm completely open to ideas at this point...

And Saltyjoe, I spent an hour at Ace Hardware last night looking at things that might work. Your idea of the lamp nipple was one of two possibilities I could find, and the other is just a slightly fancier deal with a compression fitting and copper tubing. Both would require slightly boring the hole already in the PC, which, until I have a better idea of how to go about fixing the condensation problem, I am hesitant to do - I'd rather not destroy this (remove its manufactured usability) until I know what I want to do will work...
What is the brick for though? To keep the lid on?

[lowfi]

Hey everyone,

Where can you find that Portland Type I white cement? I cant find it anywhere. The closest I have found is Portland Type I/II gray color for ~$8 a bag. I found the white grout that you can use but I want to stay away from that due to all the silica sand, etc. Does anyone have any tips to find this cement?

Thanks,
Sean

PS: I bought some salt at HD, its under the mortens brand called solar salt...is this the right stuff???

[JohnL]

This thread was automatically split due to performance issues. You can find the rest of the thread here: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1286738