Giving Up on wild caught!!!!

nysbadmk8 · #1 12/14/2003, 04:36 PM

After i had a very nice Neon acro RTN due to shipping stress, about a week ago, Ive had another wild caught Not rtn, but it looked very close so for the health of the system i had to move it out, I still have 9 Wild colonies In my system, but i dont think i will collect anymore, All my aquacultured Frags are outgrowing, and look much happier then my wild caughts except for 4 wild caughts which are very happy.

Hows everybody else feel about there Wild caught items? i might try wild caught again but from a much higher quality retailer

nysbadmk8 · #2 12/14/2003, 04:42 PM

Oh i forgot to add i had another wild caught Start to rtn right after the first neon acro, but i saved over 90% by fragging, i now have 14 frags! lol

North Bay 101 · #3 12/14/2003, 05:31 PM

See Below:

North Bay 101 · #4 12/14/2003, 05:33 PM

I have given up on wild colonies also. With a low success rate, I would rather buy aquacultured then buy something that will end up in my reacter as media

.

Success with wild - 35% vs. aquacultured - 95%.

Rendos · #5 12/14/2003, 07:45 PM

I totally agree.

AlgaeMan · #6 12/14/2003, 07:55 PM

I disagree. I have about 40 wild SPS colonies and frags doing great. I do agree that they may be less hardier then captive raised. I've been buying brown colonies and they have been coloring up.

SaltwaterSensei · #7 12/14/2003, 08:06 PM

I will always prefer tank raised/cultured sps because they seem easier for me to acclimate...

BUT I like wild colonies because they almost always some with the acro crabs which I highly enjoy...almost as much as the coral itself...

Although I've only had three wild colonies they've all come with crabs so I guess you can get wilds without them...just not in my case...haha

64Ivy · #8 12/14/2003, 08:40 PM

Not neccessarily making a pitch for 'wild caught' but since I've been giving mine a 15 minute Lugols bath right after acclimation, I have only lost one so far (out of well over a dozen).

AlgaeMan · #9 12/14/2003, 09:05 PM

Quote:

BUT I like wild colonies because they almost always some with the acro crabs which I highly enjoy...almost as much as the coral itself...

Ditto. The crabs and acro shrimp are definately a big plus. As soon as you aquire a few they will multiply and make there home in other acros.

OUinLA · #10 12/14/2003, 09:08 PM

I always try and stay away from wild colonies. I'd rather have something from someone elses tank.

witche42 · #11 12/14/2003, 10:10 PM

I prefer aquacultured sps also but, when you can get a full 4-6 inch colony for 30 bucks and an aquacultured colony the same size cost about 4 times that, i have to go with the wild caught. lugol's solution and propler light aclimation is the key to reducing the rtn. i have had a couple colonies start rtn so i also had to frag it out. all the frags though are now doing nicely and growing nicely also.

steven

Two eye hooter · #12 12/14/2003, 10:44 PM

i agree with witche42. as much as i would like to support aquacultured sps, i think the prices on some of them are kinda high IMO. i see some 1"-2" frag sell for over $30. i can get a wild colony equally as nice to me for that price or a little more.

Unless I want a specific acro with a specific color combination (i.e blue tort), i rather take the risk of using that money on wild (only 1 wild went bad on me). i'll still buy $10-$25 frags.

btw, my tank is 2/3 aquacultured frags. 1/3 wild colony.

nysbadmk8 · #13 12/14/2003, 11:31 PM

Ive been dipping with lugols, and Tech-d, and i fully agree that aquacultured prices are high, but im guessing thats due to demand and production, Im pretty sure i will buy will caught again, but im going to go the aquacultured route much more often

Chris Mu. · #14 12/14/2003, 11:37 PM

i havent had a problem yet with either store bought or ones chipped off the reef...much rather buy chipped .. much cheaper!

ReeferMac · #15 12/15/2003, 10:28 AM

Every single coral in my tank (Hard, soft, or otherwise), started it's life w/ me as a frag.

What's unfortunate in my opinion, is the people that only see the immediate monetary reasons as an excuse to buy wild (there are other more valid reasons to buy wild caught livestock, that just happens to be the worst one). The shortsighted nature of our lives these days makes it inevitable, however. I don't mean that as a knock on any one individually, I just think it's the worst possible reason to justify the action. 'cuz yer to cheap to care about the hobby? Sheesh. We'd all be better off w/o that kind of attitude I think.

- Mac

stealyourhouse · #16 12/15/2003, 10:56 AM

I agree with ReeferMac.

As aquarists, we really need to focus on making this a self sustaining hobby. We can't go on thinking that there is an endless supply of ocean life that we can go on taking.

One of the big perks of buying frags is that they look more natural in the tank. They grow in patterns that match the flow and lighting of their positioning in your tank, and it is well documented that they grow faster than wild colonies.

nysbadmk8 · #17 12/15/2003, 11:05 AM

Awesome opinions guys, im glad to see alot of people share the same frusatations as me, ( not glad glad about it ) but im happy that aquacultured items are being viewed as a much better tank item.

AlgaeMan · #18 12/15/2003, 11:08 AM

Quote:

As aquarists, we really need to focus on making this a self sustaining hobby. We can't go on thinking that there is an endless supply of ocean life that we can go on taking.

I agree and hope to propagate the wild colonies I have and participate in offering different SPS to the community.

JB NY · #19 12/15/2003, 12:11 PM

To chime in with 64Ivy, I've been doing the same with the lugol dip. And I have only had one problem in the last 5 wild corals as well. For some odd reason I have more problems with tank raised frags than wild ones.

o2manyfish · #20 12/15/2003, 01:25 PM

I don't find one coral to be hardier than another. I think what people are not understanding is the stresses on the wild corals.

The coral is sitting there under a tropical sun in a couple of feet of crystal clear ocean water.

Then it's knocked off the reef and tossed into a boat for the afternoon.

Taken from the boat to a collection station and tossed into their system for a couple of days or a week.

Then bagged, boxed it begins a trip to America. Sometimes involving a couple of transfers, flight delays temperature changes from terminals, to runways, to cargo containers.

It arrives (usually in LA) and is now moved to a new coral system, and new lighting. Here it sits from hours to weeks before your local fish store orders the coral.

Now it's bagged, boxed and shipped once again - Including temperature variables to your local airport. Transported to your local fish store and once again popped into a new system, and another set of lights.

You come cruising in - Hours or days later... See the beautiful new coral, plop down the AMEX, and again the coral is bagged, placed in a bag, heads to your car, your home and hopefully acclimated for a bit (at this point think the coral cares?) before being place in a new system, with new conditions.

Now if you did all that to any aquacultured frag do you think it would end up doing that much better?

If nothing else think of all the boucing the coral endures with it's tips against the sides of all the different bags.

I get the really stressed colonies, and use antibiotics and Lugols, and have had good success in saving frags from wild colonies.

I don't think one is better than the other (wild vs Aqua) I think one is just alot less stressed by the time it gets to your tank.

Dave B

Two eye hooter · #21 12/17/2003, 04:27 AM

Quote:

What's unfortunate in my opinion, is the people that only see the immediate monetary reasons as an excuse to buy wild (there are other more valid reasons to buy wild caught livestock, that just happens to be the worst one). The shortsighted nature of our lives these days makes it inevitable, however. I don't mean that as a knock on any one individually, I just think it's the worst possible reason to justify the action. 'cuz yer to cheap to care about the hobby? Sheesh. We'd all be better off w/o that kind of attitude I think.

I'll be the bad guy and reply in defending the wild.

Mac,
I agree we should help aquacultured and that there are alot of benefits to getting aquacultured frags. However, the problem I personally have is the prices on some of these higher priced frags (I am not talking about these so called rare or LE frags neither). I dont blame the seller but as an informed potential buyer, it is a tough sell to get me to buy high priced frags when i can buy a whole colony of something equally as nice for the same price. The price difference is huge. If it was closer to 10-20% markup above wild prices, i would be more inclined to help and buy aquacultured.

yes i agree this is an expensive hobby, but i'll try to save money when i can. IMO, this does not mean i'm too cheap to care about the hobby. would you pay 4x more for a farm raised salmon for the sake of helping preserving salmon vs. 1/4 price for a wild caught salmon? if you do, then more power to you, but i think it's unfair to call those who do buy wild too cheap to care. IMO, the huge price difference doesn't justify buying farm raised. fortunately in the reef world, there's alot of people selling frags for less than $30 which i will continue to buy. my .02 cents

ReeferMac · #22 12/17/2003, 07:04 AM

I hear what you're saying Two-Eye, but unfortunately I don't agree with your logic. I tend to view the ocean and it's resources (at least the ones I'm interested in), as being very finite. For a whole host of reasons, it's a resource that won't be around much longer if nothing is done.
By not being willing to pay more for CR livestock (regardless of the degree of difference), wether your intention or not, you _are_ part of the problem. Because you are willing to fork over XX dollars for a wild caught product, your LFS owner will import another box. There will be a guy in LA, who pays a guy in Fiji, who pays some dude on an island w/ a boat... to go down to the bottom of the ocean and rip one of these corals out. If people are not purchasing these corals, then that guy won't go out into the ocean and harvest corals. It's an economic equation, not a moral or an environmental one, and it's hard not to get trapped up in that form of thought.
If the product moves, it will be harvested. If not, it won't. It really is that simple.
Does that mean I never buy/bought any corals that were caught in the wild? No. It just means I put my money where my mouth is. I believe it's wrong to harvest corals out of the ocean wholesale as it's being done today. As a result, I support captive raising coral fragments, and my LFS owner knows it. I've complimented him on many of the beautiful wild corals he's had for sale at 30 bucks in his tanks.. and bought the Walt Smith frag for $35 bucks.
If you don't want to be a part of the solution, that's fine, but don't be a part of the problem out of financial reasons. That's just wrong. That's just like saying this hobby isn't worth the price difference to you, and that's pretty sad in my book.
I don't mean that as a personal knock towards any one individual (not you personally two-eyes, just expanding my point), that's just how I feel about the situation. I've seen more than a few gorgeous wild caught corals that I've passed up on, not because of money, but of morals. I hope that by putting my dollar where my mouth is, I will be helping contribute to the solution.

- Mac

witche42 · #23 12/17/2003, 07:28 AM

hey mac,
put your dollar where your mouth is and sell me 4 of your prized sps colonies for 30 bucks each. once again i state that i would rather buy cr frags to wild caught, due to the affect on the reefs. but if everyone did as your saying 90% of the lfs' out there would stop carrying sw livestock or close up all together due to the fact they almost all carry wild caught livestock, putting thousands of people out of work right here in the u.s. its a tough decision for me to buy wild caught, but i will continue buying wild caught for another couple months till i have my tank looking mature. i have about 15 frags of cr sps and 10 colonies(lps and sps) of wild caught. about 5 more and i will be done. then it will be time to sit back and watch all of them grow.

steven

Malcolm_C · #24 12/17/2003, 08:47 AM

Most people may not agree with me but when I get wild colonies I frag them before i put them in my tank, depeding on the type of coral I'll make many frags to optimize water movent around the coral. then I put them some where and don't touch it for a minimal of a month or so, or atleast until it adapts it's new color in my tank. the frags i make form the mother colony seem to grow faster. I was involved in several group buys within the past couple years and i purchased may wild corals on my own with zero deaths ( except for a power loss and the occasionl frag that falls behide a rock or get stung by another corals).

Preds · #25 12/17/2003, 09:41 AM

Whilst ocean raised frags might not be as hardy as aquacultured ones, they and, IMO, more environmentally soun in the long run. It gives the local collectors an alternative source of income, which means they don't have to resort to occupations which may well be more damaging to the wild, like commercial fishing. It's a balancing act between not plucking bits of coral off the reef, and taking away their livlehoods.