I know it sounds crazy but I think online shops oughta be banned LOL

[Dean812]

yes mayhap!

[Agu]

Originally posted by Dean812
The bottom line is LFS are a thing of the past. Just like the Ice Cream Parlor. Online is cheaper, healthier and more diverse. Its sad that what is lost is the human-interaction. But money in the end will always win out.

Dean, You ever bought an ice cream cone online ? They get soggy and stinky, and I'm no longer in the mood for ice cream by the time it's delivered. BTW, work on your anger management, and don't confuse post count for knowledge or experience.

Agu

[teevee]

i couldn't care less if LFSs disappear as we know them. they place more importance on impulse buys than MO shops - and impulse buying is evil.

Originally posted by saltycurofaseadog
hi I own my own lfs and get the same complaints about cost. I tell my customers that ... 1.. I quarentine my fish for one week...2 I only sell what is healthy....3.... i provide a 12 hour gaurentee.... 4.... i'm on call for help in setting up....5...i tell the customer you can see what i have and buy or you can take a chance on buying online where you cant see what you will get till you get it. Also, to get my goods from the wholesaler, I have to pay their price to then sell it retail. And its not all that cheap . I can't stop online nor do I wish to..but I can do my own competing against them by providing services they cant .

i have to comment on this - the only LFS we have that i will patronize quarantines for 21 days - i don't feel a week is long enough. they provide what essentially amounts to an unlimited guarantee. they'll hold fish for up to a month for you. they'll babysit/treat your fish if you need a hand. this probably costs them a lot of money - but they get the business from it.

[KDodds]

Oh, I wouldn't say LFSs are more of an impulse-buy danger. They're less so. You do, after all, have to actually leave your home and go to them, unlike MO online. I don't know where y'all are buying your fish, but my LFS is actually more than competitive with online pricing. And they've got the selection to boot.

[jdg]

Slightly off-topic:

... Your signature ... who sings that ... ?

[KDodds]

Stones

[The H2O Guru]

In defense of the LFS , retail is super expensive . Lots of overhead , lots of grief .
It's right there you can touch it, feel it, learn about it , but you will pay . If you know what you need and do not need their help or expertise then buy on line . But don't pump the LFS for info then buy on line . They work hard at what they do .
I know I used to retail !

Walter

Originally posted by absolut
If people are paying half including shipping what you charge in the store, dont ya think ur marking your product up too much??

I cant believe when I go to my local shop and see a Coralife PC fixture selling for $285, when I can find the exact same thing on the internet for $190!!
That's about $100 markup

I even told one of the guys I know fairly well that thier markup on thier products was ridiculous and he said "Yeah I know, but people will and do pay it."

Not putttin ya down at all, just sayin maybe some LFS need to put up some more competitive prices.

[teevee]

Originally posted by KDodds
Oh, I wouldn't say LFSs are more of an impulse-buy danger. They're less so. You do, after all, have to actually leave your home and go to them, unlike MO online. I don't know where y'all are buying your fish, but my LFS is actually more than competitive with online pricing. And they've got the selection to boot.

that's true the way you put it. i was getting at people who know nothing about the fish coming in and walking out with an entire setup without a clue what's going on. but i agree of course that us experienced reefers may fall victim to the temptations of the MO places.

[saltycurofaseadog]

morning all! i do have to agree about what some of teevee had to say. I own and run a lfs and hear about some of the outrageous purchases made by some of my new customers. the big difference between locally owned lfs and big corporate run stores is the sales pitch. Two of my customers come to mind about impulse buying. They both stopped at a large corporate store(wont name them here + but you might know their name + ). they were first time buyers so they were loaded up with all kinds of goodies that they may or may not have needed. Also the fish to start the cycle in their tanks. they were each sold yellow tangs, triggers, anemones, one damsel each,grouper in one case,and one poor guy was talked into a majestic angel ...all to cycle their tanks. you can guess what happened. In desperation after losing most of their fish My store was contacted for help. I had them bring in the fish they had for safe keeping and lent them... yes lent them some damsels to get the cycle going more cheaply. costly yes, but a happy customer is one that will return and tell others.They now have beautiful tanks and still come around even though they do buy online. SO in most cases a local fish store will do their best to help you wheras the big chain run stores will sell you anything and everything to get THAT sale.

[john f]

saltycurofaseadog,

a one week QT???????

a 12 hour guarantee???????

Are you kidding me?

Please....don't overextend yourself

As for this whole debate, I have always thought the best LFS model would be:

1. Sell Tanks at good markups ( you don't generally MO these)

2. Sell other hardgoods at almost no markup ( skimmers, lights etc.)

3. Sell frozen foods at full markups.

3. QT all fish for 2 weeks ( in hypo ) before even displaying them. Then sell the fish at large markups. You have no competition as no MO sells fish that are Ich-free.

This model makes the cost of setting up and running a tank almost as cheap as buying online, except for the livestock. But again the customer can see the fish/corals and know they are healthy and Ich-free. So you customers will have more success which will make more repeat customers.


I agree with all the others and most LFS do the exact opposite. Charging HUGE markups on hardgoods I can buy online for half-price, and then trying to sell fish for cheap the same day they bring them in.
Stupid IMHO.




John

[MalHavoc]

Dry goods are one thing, but livestock is something else. I'll never EVER buy livestock online. I want to be able to see what I am getting, and watch it eat, and make sure it looks healthy, before I decide to bring it home. I'll gladly pay more for that ability if I have to.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen posts in the Vendor Feedback forum along the lines of "The button polyps/mushroom corals/whatever I bought are tiny! I paid for the medium size, but I got tiny instead! This sucks!" That's the sort of thing that happens when you buy something online. Your idea of what constitutes a large coral frag is different from someone else's.

I don't mind spending money online, and I try to support the three or four "big" online places in Canada. I end up always buying one or two extra items, though, because I don't want to get caught if something happens. Buy your return pump online and it dies? What happens then? Run out to the great LFS and purchase a cheap Rio until you can buy another pump online some place? What happens if your ballast burns out and you need to send it back and get it fixed?

I'm all for saving money, but if you've got access to a great LFS, support it. They are rare, but oh, so worth it.

Oh, and Dean812, chill out, dude.

[saltycurofaseadog]

hi john f. yes i try not to overextend my self.... might hurt something important... . as for your suggestions yea i dont, sell lights,(i pay more for wholesale than you can buy em retail online,but can and have ordered them for others who have no access to computers.) I keep in stock a wide variaty of livestock and food with some easily obtained drygoods.I also dont mark things up the wazzo as i do have to compete with other larger stores(lfs). In other words.. i make a very modest profitto keep things running.As for the humor in my quarentine... maybe its different where you live but here where i live I'm the only one to offer any kind of quarentine and gaurentee.I lose some sales by holding them for one week while other lfs and corporate run stores sell right out of the bag... but I try to keep things healthy as best i can. cost me money and time ... ... yea but so far the customers arent complaining. when they do I take their advice and try to work it in. Speaking of which a customer is waiting for me to open...another nice thing about my store ... no set hours...(for the most part... )

[lebowski]

Well I think the lesson taught and learned, is that most LFS's are a bunch of goons that don't know jack squat and crank the prices ridiculously.

I barely go to any of my LFS, they don't know anything, and they think they know everything. They are the biggest...gosh I want to use the word..... uhm.....mean dorks. yeah mean dorks.

Online stores, or atleast the people I deal with ( hobbyist ran stores) are very nice and I usually work stuff out, THe only thing I hate is shipping, but in most cases, the shipping together with the corals is a better deal if not cheaper than in a LFS.

I've never seen frags in my LFs which is what I search for the most.

It's safe to say that Online buying overules LFS's.

[saltycurofaseadog]

goons?? gee lebowski harsh words... interesting pic you chose under your name... .... if you dont like to shop at lfs stores, no skin off my nose, but you really don't need to be so harsh here.

[guitarfish]

A couple experiences...

Last week the wife and I stop in the PetStupid in Scranton, PA. They have 50 bettas displayed in cups...no lids. One has a nickel in it. Most have a glaze on top of the water. One of the bettas, a fortunate one, leapt out and committed suicide - he's lying on the countertop dry. It wouldn't surprise me if kids were spitting in those cups. My wife was distraught, complained to an employee, and was told they'd clean them out later "if we have time." Needless to say, we won't be there ever again, for anything.

Now some good ones...
I had an angel that wouldn't eat, so I go to the small LFS in Middletown, NY. The owner has seen me in there a few times, I bought a few fish from him. He listens to my problem, sells me some frozen food, but the angel doesn't eat it. I go back and ask if he has any mysis shrimp. He comes out of the back with an opened package with 95% still in there, and GIVES it to me. I try it - the angel still won't eat. I go back again. Now the owner fills a bag with a dozen small guppy fry and says try those. NO CHARGE. You can't beat that.

Lastly - Newburgh, NY LFS, big place, lots of salt fish, rock, etc. Large inventory, and the owner is fairly knowledgeable. He has a 220g show tank with LR, corals, and gorgeous fish, it's obvious he knows what he's doing. He's given me pretty good advice on ich, helped me with other stuff. He's taken back fish that weren't compatible with others in my tank, and he spends time with me while I ask dumb questions.

It's a joy to be able to leave work at lunch time and cruise over to an LFS and look around or buy something. If I didn't have these stores, it would be a great loss.

[percula99]

I beleive in supporting my local LFS, because when the time comes to buy something I really want, I hope they'll still be there. However, as a consumer, it's not about how much I can spend, but how little. I won't go broke, so my LFS can stay in business, but I will support them anytime I can, which is most times.

Exception being large ticket items. I recently upgraded from a 100 gallon to a 180. I also upgraded to metal halide bulbs. My local LFS had a two light kit with ballast (not electronic) and reflector for $850.00. I wanted three lights, so if we add half that again, a three light set up probably would have cost $1275.00. I bought three ballast kits with relectors (same type ballast) from a hydroponics store for a total of $600.00. Less than half the price of the LFS. Three bulbs from the LFS were $145 ea. (X3) equals $435. I got them from M.O.P.S. for $115 ea. (X3) equals $345 plus $7.00 shipping equalling $352. On the lighting itself, I saved a grand total of $758. I won't go into all the other purchases, but in total on the upgrade, I saved about $2000.00 by not buying from my LFS. Like I said, it;s not about how much money I spend, it's about how much I saved.

[SawCJack00]

The great thing about people being afraid to order online is that it's less competition for me to get the good stuff! So, yes, be afraid (to order livestock online), be very afraid.

JonF you are wrong. I have ordered fish several times online, from FFX, and now www.liveaquaria.com. I have received 18 fish total, and not one has had or developed ich. I'm sure there are some lousy online livestock vendors who do ship fish with ich, etc, but not all of them do.

I do purchase from my LFS once in a while, but around here, most of the livestock is your run of the mill average corals & fish. I prefer much more exotic livestock, so I must go online. I have had nothing but success with the vendors I've chosen.

I really wish that there was a great LFS in every city, because I definitely like to see things in person, and am a huge impulse buyer, so if there's something great in front of my nose you can bet I'm taking it home (price isn't even an issue), but usually there's not much to see. Oh well.

[Summitpa]

I could have saved you a trip to Pet***** Guitarfish. Been there too. Gotta love going to a LFS and seeing multiple tanks with floaters and 3-4 employees standing around. As I said earlier I don't have a LFS that has knowledgeable employees (with SW).

On with the retail distributors. I'm missing something about retail and online distribs. I understand about volume/bulk buying for the price break, but some posts say there are different distribs for retail vs. online. Is there a secret that I don't know about? Eventually even the distribs are going to be getting the product from the same place. I fail to see why an online store would get a different price break if buying the same thing in the same amount as a retail store.

Maybe Saltycurofaseadog will move across the state and open up a store near me.

Thanks for the stickup AGU. Although me and my measly 93 posts know that this is a public forum and is NOT the place for retaliation.

[gooch]

We keep a small LFS and do some online sales. We actually have more customers come in from out of town than locally. We are more or less trying to cater to the educated aquarist. Trying to keep prices in line with mail order. At least three times a week I give quotes to locals(I consider my entire state local). I am within $10-$20 of mail order stores after sales tax is considered. Sometimes less when shipping is added into the mix. I am talking big ticket items such as lighting. 99% of the time they still order the things from mail order vendors. I do not sweat it and honestly do not have a problem with it. Other than my time I am out nothing.

What I have a problem with is when they then come to me because they cannot figure the equipment out that was purchased elswhere. You want customer service and support when I didn't sell it to you? COME ON people. You know what happens? I still help you out. As do most of the LFS I have come in contact with. The bad ones get talked about,but good ones go out of business too.

My feelings are that you need to keep in touch with the times. My best selling items are without a doubt aquacultured corals. But I still have to work two other jobs to keep this one going. And I don't drive a vet, 94 ford f150. And if there is anything I PUSH as a salesman to beginners it's a good BOOK.

gooch

[john f]

"JonF you are wrong"

First of all spell my name right.
Secondly, how am I wrong?
Just because you got fish delivered to you without Ich does not equal an Ich-free tank.

Nobody in the online business actually TREATS the fish for Ich using hyposalinity before sale, so you probably have added Ich to your tank. You may never have an outbreak, but then again you might.

My overall point is that LFS need to understand what value they can add to a product and use those as their moneymaking tools.


saltycurofaseadog,

My knock on your 12 hour guarantee had to with the fact that most online vendors will give at least a 5 day guarantee. Heck, I just had Marine Center credit me for an anthias that died 3 weeks after I got him because he never would eat.




John

[dendronepthya]

I will never understand the logic that a certain type of business should be banned because it is more efficient and profitable than what was there before. It's like blaming a place such as Walmart for virtually outcompeting everyone with a better business model. The business environment is a very competitive place. If your store is being beaten up on by online retailers, feel free to get better or close up. My bank account is not a charity for inefficient businesses just because they are down the street from me.

[SPC]

Originally posted by dendronepthya
I will never understand the logic that a certain type of business should be banned because it is more efficient and profitable than what was there before. It's like blaming a place such as Walmart for virtually outcompeting everyone with a better business model. The business environment is a very competitive place. If your store is being beaten up on by online retailers, feel free to get better or close up. My bank account is not a charity for inefficient businesses just because they are down the street from me.

And that is why I pointed out PA and Marine Depot earlier. Both of these are LFS and mail order. Both of these also seem to be successful, these two have proved that there must be a way to do both.
Steve

[BigBird]

Before I say this, I'm absolutely not affiliated with the soon-to-be-mentioned LFS that I happen to think is a fairly good one.

We've got a LFS -- Aquatic Technology -- in NE Ohio that's not too bad. Like other retail operations, research is a good idea prior to blowing money on any dry goods there, but his selection is fairly huge & I'm sometimes willing to lay down the extra dough to avoid having to wait several days for delivery.

The guy who I think owns the place, Greg, is a bit . . . eccentric. However, he and his employees seem to have at least a clue about what's going on. Also, his display tanks are really cool He's got a 675 gal lit by 3 400 watt MH in their own self contained ventilation hood.

Anyway, if you live in the area (the shop's on 82 west of Southpark Mall) I recommend that you check out this shop before deciding that all Lfs's suck eggs, which unfortunately most of them do.

I think he's got an internet operation, also.

[saltycurofaseadog]

hi bigbird... your right about aquatic technology, his place is fantastic. Ive bought livestock off of him as well before i opened up. He can also compete with a lot of online stores because he is big enough to buy in bulk. when you buy a gross of lights of each type, yea you get a large price savings. same with the other drygoods. Most mom and pop pet stores dont have the buying power of large (credited) stores.When i purchase drygoods for some of my customers, its cheaper for me to pay retail costs online then add a coupla bucks for my time.If i make 3 dollars i'm happy . My advantage as a retail is i'm set up as a hobbyist as well as a store. very little overhead except for the missus..

[saltycurofaseadog]

john f no prob... ... I know online has a wonderful return /credit policy... I've used it myself when i've had to when i was just a lonesome buyer crying out in the wilderness i live in. Your online stores can write a lot off and still make money...(less overhead even than me).And its great that they can do that. But like i said earlier... my store is the only one to offer that so untill they do start to compete with me I think I'm ok with that. However, there are exceptions to every rule and I work with my customers on an individual bases( no one has the same problems, which keeps it interesting as heck.... ) but hey its all fun. as a matter of fact, if your ever in the area stop in... i wont give you a 5 day garuntee but I will give you a 120 hour one... .