Am I Sentenced To A Life Without Parole With These Flatworms?

[smiller]

I know most of the answers to most of the questions on this subject, but I guess I'll go with it anyway. I have the bad flatworms, the matting multiply daily by the tons kind. I have religously siphoned them two to three times weekly for a few months now. I thought I was keeping them under control and now I think I'm started to lose the battle. They have always been confined to the lower part of the rock and the sand. But now the're getting control of the whole tank.

I'm becoming very frustrated as otherwise my tank looks great. And I do not get frustrated easily. I have had it running for over a year with only one coral and one fish loss. I have over 50 corals and three clams.

I don't know what else to do but just keep on am I have been. But I can't fathom the thought of this going on forever. I am to the point of consdering doing something more desperate like Oomed and take my losses.

I know people that have used it advise not to but this is getting out of hand. Is there anything that I am overlooking? Thanks.

[Adam]

smiller,

There is a flatworm eating nudibranch. They have recently been making their way into the hobby. My understanding is that they have look alikes, so get them someplace reputable. Arrow crabs and some wrasses are rumored to eat them, but both can be destructive and eat desireable critters (especially bristle worms in the case of the arrow crabs).

There are also additives that will kill them, but big die offs of flatworms have been know to harm other inhabitants.

HTH and good luck.

Adam

[rshimek]

Hi,

As Dante noticed, the saying over the entrance to Hell was, "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here."

You could take that to heart.

Or.... Maybe....

Try getting a few of the cephalaspidean slugs (most folks call them nudibranchs, but they aren't nudi's)that are supposed to eat them. Inland Aquatics may have some, some other vendors may have some.

Other than this, I think Oomed might be your only way out.

Good luck!

[Vpham97]

There are people who OOmed, but the FW come back. If you Oomed w/ that much FW in your tank. The dead FW would cause a crash. Ask Agu about this.

I don't know how far from Houston do you live. Damsel in some store are $1.99 there. Put 10 - 20 damsel in your tank. Rarely feed the Damsel. Depend on how aggressive the Damsel you pick, the FW will be gone in 2-3 week. You can go w/ 1 or 2 damsel if you are patient. But to make sure just put 10 - 20 damsel in your tank.

[smiller]

I talked to Inland. They said they have them in stock finally. He said they are hard to get. He said they put two in a 55 gallon and they made a difference in just a day. I ordered two. We will see. Thanks all.


Dr. Ron:

Did Dante see any signs that said "I'll believe it when I see it?"

[rshimek]

Do let us know how the slugs do, please.

[Flame*Angel]

I'm a beginner still (read forever) setting up my first tank. I've seen quite a few messages about flat worms and it sounds like the worst pestilence. I just have to ask - how does a tank get the plague of the flat worms in the first place?

[rshimek]

Hi,

Generally one or a small number (they can reproduce by splitting in two) enters hidden in a crevice of live rock or coral. By the time the aquarist knows they are there, there may be literally thousands of them.

They may not be able to thrive or take over in all tanks, definitely some folks that should have them (those who have traded corals with folks who do, for example) don't, but why they don't is not clear.

We don't know the complete story with them yet. They do seem to be, at best, unpleasant.

[Vpham97]

[Q]I just have to ask - how does a tank get the plague of the flat worms in the first place? [/Q]

You can get it from trading coral. Also, most coral from the store I know of came from Indonesia. FW sometime are present in those coral from Indonesia. At least that's what it's said in The Reef Aquarium volume one.

[rshimek]

Hi,

The worms are present throughout the Indo-Pacific, not just Indonesia, and I suspect by now in many distributor/dealer tanks.

Getting them is rather like playing the lottery, but the odds are better....

[Flame*Angel]

It certainly sounds like one would be better off preventing flatworms from entering their main tank than having to deal with them once they're established.

Provided that I'm lucky enough not to get any in my live rock when I finally setup my tank, would quarantining corals be a feasible way of preventing getting them in my main tank?

[rshimek]

Yes, if you are lucky enough to see them on or off the coral, - - if any were present.

Careful examination and quarantine might well be the way to go.

[Vpham97]

If you are afraid of it, quarantine is the only way to go. You'll see the FW crawl into the sandbed, or on the glass wall of your quarantine tank.

I don't quarantine the my fish, but I would quarantine the coral.

You not only need to quaratine against FW, but for Bryopsis, Aitapsia and Valonia as well.

If you are taking it slow. Put your rock in your tank for a couple of months, see if you have any of the above, then slowly add the coral last later.

Watch Out!

[Flame*Angel]

I have no problem with slow, I've been learning for almost a year now. My friends and family figure my new hobby has nothing to do with fish or corals - just books and equipment.

When I bought my quarantine tank I didn't think that I'd be considering putting corals in it though. It just has a NO florescent strip on it. I guess I'd better consider at least a PC. There is an excellent LFS in my area for fish and corals and even they have a valonia problem.

Thanks for the tip about the rock Vpham97, I'll be sure to have it in the tank a couple months before adding corals. I'll concentrate on getting my DSB thriving in the meantime.

One more question - approximately how long would you suggest I quarantine corals to try and determine if they have flat worms, bryopsis, aiptasia or valonia?

[Vpham97]

FW don't take long to collect on your glass or sand bed. They'll make their present known quickly.

Aitapsia/bubble algae would just pop in and out.

If you don't have any corals in your aquarium, it's easier to treat Aitapsia by dropping Peppermint shrimp in it.

As for bubble algae, I would like to hear of a solution for it myself. If you don't have any coral, you can take the rock out and nick pick straight out of the rock. Or get one of those crab that eat it.

You can quarantine all you want, but sooner or later down the line, you'll probably still encounter them in your aquarium. Quarantine does reduce the chance greatly.

I don't have a suggestion as to the timeline of quarantine.

I have seen dealer where there whole tank is covered in bubble algae. At first I though that these were good for the aquarium(I though this is what people are referring to as pod) -silly me.

[Mimbler1]

I had my flatworms (planaria) appear 4 months after my latest introduction to the tank. I've since had them for over a year. Quarantine may help prevent pests, but I dont think it will be a cure all.
Mike

[Breef]

I just thought that I would relate my experience with flatworms. I contacted them when I bought a few idems from a store in Dallas that had an infestation.I didn't notice it untill they were in mine. I dose my calcium with Ball's pickling lime. Just mix and drip like regular Kalk. It wasn't intentional but every once in a while I put a little too much in the water and or add it a little too quickly and I have a bit of a precipitation in the tank.Not too bad but slight cloudyness on the glass and rocks. It never has hurt anything before but this time was ever so slightly more. I usually just blow it off everything with my turkeybaster. Well the culture of flatworms that were just beginning to get to the point of bothering me simply crashed and disappeared. Seems they couldn't breath or something. It still didn't seem to hurt anything else so I was lucky.To this day I have no more flatworms. Haven't seen a one.

[Salt Creep]

Smiller,

I was lucky and found a couple of the slugs at the pet store I trade my xenia at, and since I had flatworms plastering the walls in my propagation tray and lots of store credit burning a hole in my pocket, I decided to give them a shot.

When I got the slugs home I covered the siphon outlet of the propagation tray (which leads to the main reef tank) with some mesh fabric, held in place with a rubber band. There are no powerheads in the tray... the water gets pumped in from the main tank. The slugs were pretty small when I put them in, but in a week when I got back from vacation the flatworm population was greatly diminished and the slugs had tripled in size!

A few days after I got back one of the slugs managed to get through the tray's emergency overflow and get killed by a powerhead in the sump. Before that though, they were mating and laying eggs quite regularly.


In a couple of weeks there were NO FLATWORMS left. Right now the remaining slug is slurping down flatworms in a friend's tank.

I think the most important thing besides getting the right kind of slug is to make sure there is no way for the slugs to get caught in overflows or powerheads. Covering powerhead intakes with sponges seems to work (in my friend's tank, which has no overflow).

Ken

[Vpham97]

Flame*Angel,

I wouldn't recommend it, but if you are that scared about FW, you can try to dip your coral in freshwater.

There are people who recommend dipping corals for 2-3 second. I was making sure, so I dipped the coral for 7-9 second. I swaggered the coral back and forth in a bucket of HOT tap water. Talking about double shocking the coral. I though that I might've dipped too long and the coral was melting away. The mushroom was all melting it gut out. The star polyp close up. The Kenya Tree, was shrivel up and shedding it skin. I had to blow the skin off w/ the powerhead. I though that I was going to lose it all. But everything recovered. After the dip, one of the mushroom went on a dividing binge. Anyway, that's probably going to be the last time I'm dipping my coral. It was a gory/bloody/slimy scence in the tank after the dip. I'm going to risk receiving FW rather than see my corals that way.

The biodiversity on those coral is about as good as it get, it's just not worth it in my opinion to dip the soft coral as you receive them, unless it's a frag.



[Edited by Vpham97 on 05-16-2001 at 03:16 AM]

[Breef]

Most of the organisms mentioned are visible to the naked eye. Although it is very easy to overlook something that small. As far as the flatworms go,if you are buying your livestock from a LFS then just look in their tanks around real close and you can usually tell if there is a problem with FW,Valonia,or aptasia.They are such a neusence that they can usually be spotted right away. Only if you know how to identify them in advance of course. I'm not saying its not possible to pick up a straggler.If you order by mail then quarantine is highly recomended.

[rshimek]

Ken,

Thanks for the informaton on the non-nudi's - sorry, the malacologist in me just can't call these animals nudi's - my foible, I guess.

They store sperm, and even a singleton should be laying eggs. It might be pretty easy to raise them.

[Salt Creep]

Well, they don't have naked gills so we can't call them nudibrachs, can we? :-) They kind of remind me of two-tailed black weiner dogs wearing neon-blue trimmed wet suits.

I forgot to mention that they poop big wads of orange slime now and then, and the slime seems to be toxic. I had a mushroom that got pooped on that shriveled up and died. I guess it's the flatworm toxins all concentrated in the poop.

Ken

[rshimek]

Originally posted by Salt Creep

Hi Ken,

Well, they don't have naked gills so we can't call them nudibrachs, can we? :-) They kind of remind me of two-tailed black weiner dogs wearing neon-blue trimmed wet suits.

Ah... to each his own with similies.

Technically, they are bubble shells and they have a small internal shell, which no nudibranch has.

Also their guts are rather significantly different from nudibranchs.

That observation about the slime is a good one. Might be a good idea to remove it when you see it. I would bet they also concentrate some of the toxins in their own tissues. Species in the same genus found on the US Pacific coast are toxic to some fish (those guys eat nudibranchs, by the by).

[Smitty91]

Hey Doc,

Do I have your permission to quote you on this thread for my web site?

These threads don't stay here forever and too many times, I read a thread, asking a question and I can't always recall exactly what the suggested resolution was, in all cases. Sometimes, it all seems like too much information!

What I'm trying to do, is put together a "Common Marine Annoyances & Solutions" webpage. If at best, I could refer back to the web page, should some of these questions pop up on other boards in the future.

Thanks,
Smitty

[rshimek]

Smitty,

It is fine with me, but just to cover all bases, and dot all t's and cross all i's, you should probably clear it with JohnL, the administrator of Reef Central.