DSB in a bucket for nitrate control - Page 7

EnderG60 · #**151** 10/28/2006, 02:57 PM

oh no need to worry about it its about a 90/10 mix with 10% crushed shells

nyvp · #**152** 11/02/2006, 10:45 AM

Just want to start off by saying thank you all for this HUGE amount of amazing info.

This is for my 2000g total volume sysytem.

ok working on finishing the sump here is my finished remote dsb

its a portion of my 240 sump about 75G is made of black acyrlic to stop any light from getting in. Will fill with aragonite sand to help with filtration and maybe a bit of buffering

DIY spray bar out of one in pvc

back of the sump with the lines coming from sump to RDSB a Phosban Reactor will be inline here

finished spraybar in sump

There is a hole on there end of the RDSB to flow back into the sump

What do you guys think?

I don't want to take away from the thread of being in a bucket.
please if you have any questions or comments here is my build thread:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...39#post8463839

Artik · #**153** 11/05/2006, 02:13 AM

So after reading this about rdsb, i could use silica beach sand around 15" deep, with no risk of hydrogen sulfide seepage?

TekCat · #**154** 11/05/2006, 07:59 PM

AFAIK, if you don't disturb sand bed, you'll be fine.

EnderG60 · #**155** 11/13/2006, 10:32 AM

week 13

trates are still in the 30-40 range, no clue whats going on but im done with this bucket. It has been disconnected and im dumping it out.

I may try it again later but im just gonna leave it off for a while and see what happens.

Brian Prestwood · #**156** 11/13/2006, 01:51 PM

Interesting thread

A simple solution to a common problem, I like it. Thanks Anthony.

DSB Saturation

I noticed a couple of people talking about the sand replacement cycle. Having gone through the “dead” in-tank DSB fiasco myself I’m not taking any chances. I have 12 1 gal RDSBs. On my current schedule it takes three years to replace all the sand. I saw a couple of comments that said if macro fauna doesn’t get into the RDSB it should last forever. That’s too many ifs for me. I just don’t see how you can prevent macro fauna from getting into the RDSB. “Nature will find a way.” I guess if you detect a RDSB saturation problem early enough (~4 mos.) you can always bring a second RDSB in a bucket on line. Otherwise, you are going to lose 100% of your denitrification capacity all at once. For those of you who are planning on replacing the sand, what replacement period do you like?

DSBs and Phosphate Export

The other issue I’ve seen discussed that I’m concerned about is phosphate export. Remoting our DSBs doesn’t change this. I’m guessing the Redfield (red something) ratio holds for the bacteria in the DSB. Perhaps that explains why DSBs don’t cause phosphates to climb until they are saturated with bacteria. It seems like you would want to change the sand out at this point anyway. It will be interesting to see what happens in tanks with these new turbo charged RDSBs and macro algae. Are macro algae pointless if you have an unsaturated (viable) DSB?

Cycle Time

I don’t understand the comments about it taking weeks for the RDSBs to cycle. It takes months for in-tank DSBs to grow enough bacteria to keep up with typical bio-loads. Am I missing something?

FWIW - My RDSB

I have 180 lbs of sugar fine aragonite sand in a 7” deep RDSB servicing a 170 display tank. I would have gone deeper but didn’t have room. The RDSB is not exposed to light. It has 2K GPH water flow over it. Nitrates are undetectable.There are pics in the 160 Room Divider album in my gallery.

I tore down my five year old unsustainable 5" in-tank DSB about a year ago and replaced it with a 7” deep RDSB. I filled it with half aged sand from old DSB and half new (all sugar fine) sand. Nitrates peaked at 20 ppm about two months later. Nitrates dropped to undetectable two months after that. In other words, it performs like an in-tank DSB.

LRS078 · #**157** 11/14/2006, 07:56 AM

Update: My RDSB of ~25 gallons of sand on a 200 gallon FOWLR system has been initially positive (about 5 weeks old to 9 weeks old) but now nitrate levels have begun to rise again. I was forced to use water changes to bring them back down. This was after checking every other part of the tank/filtration for "nitrate factories". No other fish added/removed. Did tweak skimmer to feed directly from overflow which helped amount of skimmate produced greatly....

Then I began to think....to do a DSB of say 6" of sand on a 200 gallon tank is what....~50 gallons of sand on most tanks?? I would think that the size of the RDSB would have to be similarly sized to have a longterm effect.

I have however introduced a significant amount of macroalgae (chaeto) with some 5500K light. With a pair of clamp lamps with 120w compact flourescent bulbs growth has been excellent. That combined with the RDSB has helped with the nitrate issue. Still, I'm not sure its enough for a FOWLR longterm. I would think a RDSB fuge is an excellent supplement to a sulphur denitrator (such as the koralin or esp the midwest aquatic) or even a properly sized coil denitrator (very DIY-able). Overall I'm sure that the capacity of a RDSB and/or fuge would be completely adequate for a reef like bioload.

Still, the current setup still extends intervals between water changes....

onehundred20 · #**158** 11/22/2006, 09:37 PM

just set up remote DSB today, I only used a 5 gallon bucket for now since I could not find a better sized container anywhere today....I will get some pics soon, as well as report how well this drops my nitrates on a 120....The nitrates currently are around 30ppm. I really hope it helps this is driving me nuts.

thriceanangel · #**159** 11/22/2006, 10:25 PM

finally gave up on rdsb and dosed sugar...

onehundred20 · #**160** 11/23/2006, 02:19 AM

what are the effects of sugar, any good thread to read about that?

J_Geisinger000 · #**161** 11/23/2006, 07:09 AM

I heard dosing sugar could brown out your sps

percula99 · #**162** 11/23/2006, 08:14 AM

There seems to be no real clear cut result using the RDSB. It works for some, and not for others. When I first set mine up, within a few weeks my nitrates were down to below 10 from a range of 40-50 before. After a couple of weeks, they crept up again and stayed there. I vaccuumed my sand bed and cleared my sump of lots of detritus, did a water change a month ago, and as of last night my nitrates are still under 10. Can that be attributed to the maintenance I did, or the RDSB? I personally beleive the RDSB is doing some good, but I had to do the maintenance to assist the RDSB to do it's job. Keep everything else clean, and it can do what it is supposed to.

bguile · #**163** 11/23/2006, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by percula99
There seems to be no real clear cut result using the RDSB. It works for some, and not for others....

and unfortunately, there will never be. Condoms work but many of us have children b/c....well, you get the point!

There are too many factors in play in this case. You never know what others have missed, or done or exactly what they have in their tank. All live rock or livestock is not the same. For me personally I believe it has done well. Unfortunately, with where I live right now and whats available to me my makeup water consistently has 5ppm of nitrates in it. However, on weekly tests previous to adding the water my nitrates measure around 2.5ppm somewhere. I've had algae problems in the past but within the last couple weeks it seems that my RDSB is starting to kick in. With each cleaning I'm seeing a much slower and less return of algae.

Brian Prestwood · #**164** 11/23/2006, 11:25 AM

Oxygen tends to produce faster metabolisms. Perhaps the aerobic bacteria in the thin aerobic layer grow much faster than the anerobic bacteria in the thick remainder. The quick drop in nitrates was due to aerobic bacteria binding nitrates as they grew. Once the aerobic media was saturated the nitrates started climbing again. Once the anerobic bacteria starts to export nitrates as nitrious oxide the nitrates will start to drop again.

Does anyone with climbing nitrates have clear buckets with newly fomed (nitrous oxide) bubbles visible in the sand?

onehundred20 · #**165** 11/23/2006, 12:40 PM

from what ive read it look like it shows quick results but then will rise again, but after a few weeks will come back down and stay there, some problems other may be having is not a big enough bucket.

i believe its 5 gallons per 50 gallons

percula99 · #**166** 11/23/2006, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Unfortunately, with where I live right now and whats available to me my makeup water consistently has 5ppm of nitrates in it.

bguile, if you are having trouble with your make up water have you tried using an RO unit? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "where I live right now and whats available". Aren't you not just outside Baltimore? There must be places there where you can get an RO unit. Or is there another problem?

bguile · #**167** 11/23/2006, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by percula99
bguile, if you are having trouble with your make up water have you tried using an RO unit? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "where I live right now and whats available". Aren't you not just outside Baltimore? There must be places there where you can get an RO unit. Or is there another problem?

Yes, I can get an RO unit and I may do that but I will be moving soon and didn't want to purchase an RO/DI unit until I moved. Particularly because Im very limited in space and just didn't want to spend the money yet.

bguile · #**168** 11/23/2006, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by percula99
bguile, if you are having trouble with your make up water have you tried using an RO unit? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "where I live right now and whats available". Aren't you not just outside Baltimore? There must be places there where you can get an RO unit. Or is there another problem?

Yes, I can get an RO unit and I may do that but I will be moving soon and didn't want to purchase an RO/DI unit until I moved. Particularly because Im very limited in space and just didn't want to spend the money yet.

Malifluous · #**169** 11/24/2006, 05:32 AM

I think the reason why the RDSB seems like rolling the dice is beacause nobody indicates if they are using live sand or dry sand to start the RDSB. Dry sand from Home depot is going tot ake some time to be beneficial. The quallity of he live sand people are using can also vary. IME, RDSB started with fresh, live sand will alwayd reduce trates.

DgenR8 · #**170** 11/24/2006, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Malifluous
I think the reason why the RDSB seems like rolling the dice is beacause nobody indicates if they are using live sand or dry sand to start the RDSB. Dry sand from Home depot is going tot ake some time to be beneficial. The quallity of he live sand people are using can also vary. IME, RDSB started with fresh, live sand will alwayd reduce trates.

I gotta disagree. If you add all live sand (let's forget about the stuff in a bag, to me, "live sand" comes from an established tank) to an empty bucket, you not only kill off the aerobic bacteria that winds up at the bottom of the bucket (no oxygen), you are not adding any anaerobic bacteria (the bacteria that consume nitrate).
I have no direct DSB in a bucket experience, so I'm only drawing conclusions, but I believe I'm correct.

onehundred20 · #**171** 11/24/2006, 12:06 PM

i think it just takes time, and also you must make sure your using the right amount etc.....

Is there such thing as overkill, Im t hinking about doing a 20 gallon brute instead, on a 120 with a 55 gallon sump.

thriceanangel · #**172** 11/24/2006, 05:31 PM

heres a thread: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=898931
and it does work. I have gone from 20- 160ppm w/ RDSB running for 3 months, I had removed the coral rubble substrate, had no fish, used ro/di water as replacement. SO as a last resort I tried the sugar method, and it works!!!!!!! I now have gone from 160ppm to about 15ppm in a week, and still falling. SPS are actually less brown!!

Malifluous · #**173** 11/25/2006, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DgenR8
I gotta disagree. If you add all live sand (let's forget about the stuff in a bag, to me, "live sand" comes from an established tank) to an empty bucket, you not only kill off the aerobic bacteria that winds up at the bottom of the bucket (no oxygen), you are not adding any anaerobic bacteria (the bacteria that consume nitrate).
I have no direct DSB in a bucket experience, so I'm only drawing conclusions, but I believe I'm correct.

Now I gotta disagree,
you are not going to kill of all the aerobic bacteria for 2 reasons. SOme of the aerobic bacteria will end up in the upper layer of the DSB. They will recieve O2 and do fine. Some aerobic bacteria that goes to thge deeper regions will not be all obligate aerobes and therefore will not all die.
The live sand will also contain non obligate anaerobic bacteria so if they end up in a deepoer region they will be fine, if they end up in a shallow region they will be fine. With live sand you are planting the seeds of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. Yes you are adding anaerobic bacteria from the live sand. Non obligate anerobes. If you get live sand from a established tank, Dig down to the bottom and get some of the anaerobic bacteria as well.

DgenR8 · #**174** 11/25/2006, 09:59 AM

I don't claim to be an expert here, what I'm saying is a product of things I've witnessed, and things I've read. There is no guarantee that I am right.
My understanding of anaerobic bacteria is that they can not be exposed to an oxygen rich environment, or they die. At the same time, aerobic bacteria can not be suffocated, or they die.
I'm sure that seeding with live sand helps, I just don't think you can create an "instant DSB in a bucket" with live sand or otherwise. It, like everything else in this hobby takes time.

Malifluous · #**175** 11/25/2006, 02:15 PM

I agree , you can not just create an effective DSB instantly. You are correct about aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. But some of them can go both ways. They can thrive under oxygenated and low O2 environments. Im no expert either but i have a clue and everything i said in my last post was just my opinion. We are just trying o understand why the RDSB works for some and not for others. Does anyone have another reason why we can be geting different results?