My new hatchery (56k beware)

[FuEl]

Originally posted by BlackOnyx
Yeah how are you going to hold any bacteria then in bare bottom tanks?

Probably he does'nt need too much bacteria to colonise his system, especially with his ASM running.

[CaptiveMarine]

Originally posted by FuEl
Probably he does'nt need too much bacteria to colonise his system, especially with his ASM running.

I'm running 2 fluidized bed sand filters on it. Each one is rated for 900 gallons so I should have plenty. If not I'll add a bio-tower.

[BlackOnyx]

bio tower???

u think they will keep your nirates in check?

[CaptiveMarine]

Originally posted by BlackOnyx
bio tower???

u think they will keep your nirates in check?

It's like a tall wet dry with only the dry part. I take a 4' piece of 6" pvc and fill it with bioballs. Water enter the top and flows down over the bioballs and exits the bottom.

Will it keep nitrates down? No, that's what water changes are for.

[chasekwe]

Just out of curiosity how many fish do you think you'll be able to produce over any given time period with that setup when running at full capacity?

Just a ballpark would be cool.


Thanks.

[Kathy55g]

This is a very impressive hatchery!
I have a smaller system on a table top stand, but I am thinking about setting up another on shelving, so I am following your story with interest!

Show us a picture of the closed loop when you get a chance. I've always wondered about those.

[paOol]

and i thought i was krazy using a 60 gallon to breed clowns o_O.
you are nuts mahng.

[BlackOnyx]

I bet you can't guess what I breed =) Least as soon as I get another female.

Water changes? I stopped doing those long ago and everything just keeps on growing. I just had trace elements every now and then.

Are you referring to a ntirate tower?

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/.../4912/cid/1387

[ediaz]

a bio tower is what he is describing, a pvc pipe full of bio balls , I used 2- 4" diameter 5' long pvc pipes, the two at the left side, not good pic but it gives an idea, sorry Kathy, putting together something soon...

It is basically a nitrate factory, but all bio filters are.



Ed

[BlackOnyx]

so wouldnt the nirate tower be more benefical to a breeder setup?

[Kathy55g]

Ammonia and nitrite are a LOT more toxic than nitrate.

Bio tower, bioballs, biowheel, all versions of wet/dry filtering convert ammonia and nitrite(poisonous) to nitrate (vitually harmless, but stimulator of algae growth).

Nitrate can be diluted/removed with water changes. Nitrate is not the primary concern in a "breeder setup".

Ammonia is. We are not growing corals, we are feeding a lot of fish.


I am not going to spend hundreds to remove nitrate, when I am changing a lot of water daily, anyway. JMO.

Cheers,
Kathy

[JHardman]

Originally posted by Kathy55g
Ammonia and nitrite are a LOT more toxic than nitrate.

Bio tower, bioballs, biowheel, all versions of wet/dry filtering convert ammonia and nitrite(poisonous) to nitrate (vitually harmless, but stimulator of algae growth).

Nitrate can be diluted/removed with water changes. Nitrate is not the primary concern in a "breeder setup".

Ammonia is. We are not growing corals, we are feeding a lot of fish.


I am not going to spend hundreds to remove nitrate, when I am changing a lot of water daily, anyway. JMO.

Cheers,
Kathy

Kathy, while I understand your point of view, I think you are greatly under estimating nitrate and is costs.

The two biggest recurring costs in breeding SW fish are water and food. If you have to change water all the time, you are wasting money, time and effort that could be better spent elsewhere.

In the long run a breeder is making a very good investment by dealing with nitrates without having to change water.

[CaptiveMarine]

Wow, I took a couple of days off, and there are lots of questions. I'll try to answer them the best I can.

This is a very impressive hatchery!
I have a smaller system on a table top stand, but I am thinking about setting up another on shelving, so I am following your story with interest!

Show us a picture of the closed loop when you get a chance. I've always wondered about those.

Kathy,

I had been following your thread and getting ideas there. The hole saw I needed to drill holes in the closed loop pipe just got here today, so hopefully I can get to work on it this weekend, and I'll post some pictures.

Just out of curiosity how many fish do you think you'll be able to produce over any given time period with that setup when running at full capacity?

chasekwe,

That I'm really not sure. It's not going to be as high as you might think. The reason I'm building this is not to mass produce fish, but more for research. I want to focus on fish that are not currently bred by companies like ORA and ProAquatixs, and hopefully help to expand the number of captive bred fish that are offered to us in the hobby.

I do plan to keep a few regular breeding pairs to hopefully help offset some of the expenses of this project (I've got four Akindynos Clowns in quarantine now), but most of the other breeding pairs will rotate in and out.



paOol,

and i thought i was krazy using a 60 gallon to breed clowns o_O.you are nuts mahng.

Not nuts, I just love what I do.



BlackOnyx,

Water changes? I stopped doing those long ago and everything just keeps on growing. I just had trace elements every now and then.

I'm sorry.

Ammonia and nitrite are a LOT more toxic than nitrate.

Bio tower, bioballs, biowheel, all versions of wet/dry filtering convert ammonia and nitrite(poisonous) to nitrate (vitually harmless, but stimulator of algae growth).

Nitrate can be diluted/removed with water changes. Nitrate is not the primary concern in a "breeder setup".

Ammonia is. We are not growing corals, we are feeding a lot of fish.


I am not going to spend hundreds to remove nitrate, when I am changing a lot of water daily, anyway. JMO.

Cheers,
Kathy

Kathy,

I'm with you. Regular partial water changes should be done, however, I am looking at ways to cut down on the size of the water changes. On my system a 10% water change in about 80 gallons and I've still got to add the growout system. Even at wholesale prices this is going to get very expensive very quick.

The way I'm setting the system up now I will control nitrate with water changes, then I'm going to start experminting with other ideas such as a large Remote Deep Sand Bed, sulphur denitrators, etc. I don't plan on doing away with regular water changes, I just want to strike a balance between water quality and expenses.

In the long run a breeder is making a very good investment by dealing with nitrates without having to change water.

JHardman,

Care to share some tips?

[Kathy55g]

Sounds very smart to me to put some time into the fish that are not commonly bred. If the day comes when we can no longer pull fish from the ocean to decorate our tanks, knowing how to breed something other than clownfish will be invaluable, in more ways than monetarily.

I, too, am interested in ways to reduce nitrate. But if one doesn't take care of ammonia, one has bigger problems than nusiance algae. That was my point above.
Cheers,
Kathy

[CaptiveMarine]

Originally posted by Kathy55g

I, too, am interested in ways to reduce nitrate. But if one doesn't take care of ammonia, one has bigger problems than nusiance algae. That was my point above.
Cheers,
Kathy

Oh, I know. If you don't take care of the ammonia you won't have to worry about the nitrates. My reply was really a combination of your post and JHardmans post. What I was really trying to point out was that I think water changes are important but there does need to be some research into ways to reduce the nitrate load in the water other than just by water changes.

[BlackOnyx]

how do u calculate the return flow?? meaning how do u know the return lines will get water to all the tanks?

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by CaptiveMarine
Oh, I know. If you don't take care of the ammonia you won't have to worry about the nitrates. My reply was really a combination of your post and JHardmans post. What I was really trying to point out was that I think water changes are important but there does need to be some research into ways to reduce the nitrate load in the water other than just by water changes.

Yup, your 10 % water change is my entire system volume! Thanks. I would love to hear more from J Hardman on how to reduce nitrates, too.

Cheers,
Kathy

[JHardman]

Originally posted by CaptiveMarine
JHardman,

Care to share some tips?

Do a search for posts from Dman on nitrate filters. What I am refering to is denitrators. They use a slow, long flow to create a low or near zero O2 environment and then places the water into an area with lots of bio filtration which allows for nitrate to be converted to nitrogen.

Think about how nice it will be when you can maintain several hundred gallons of water that has a massive amount of life that is being fed a ton and not have to change the water to remove nitrates.

[jnowell]

I've read all those threads, and even downloaded some old waste water documents from the 70's (haven't spent that much time at the library since college). I love the idea of the denitrating coil, basically a LONG coil of small diameter tubing (.170" is what I'm using) kinda like RO tubing or Ice maker type stuff, kinda rigid and already in a coil for you. Mine works off of a syphon, I'll have to find my notes, but I think it only runs about 8 mil through 100 feet of tubing every 30 minutes. I drain it into the skimmer portion of my sump so it can be re-oxygenated before returning to the display.

It's still a little early to tell, but it is dropping the nitrates down. My nitrates rise when I only do 10% changes, so periodically I do a 30% change to keep them in check. All I'm really trying to do is eliminate the 30% change, so far so good. It's only been running for one month, with my regular 10% changes...and the nitrates haven't creeped above 20, which they normally would have by now. I plan to start another thread on this some day, but want to give it some more time to make sure I'm seeing a benefit first, and I want to see if it gets clogged, this seems to be the main problem with coil denitrators.

Jason

[rsman]

but I think it only runs about 8 mil through 100 feet of tubing every 30 minutes.
yea you need to go back and read your notes, that flow rate is toooo slow.

[jnowell]

Right you are rsman, my calculated "guess" was 8.5 mil every 30 SECONDS...not minutes. That was suposed to be max flow, I started it with about 10 mil every 3 minutes, and haven't bumped it up yet. I understand that you need to raise the flow rate very slowly over a long period of time.

It's funny, I read up on all this, and did all my math about a month ago, already none of it makes sense to me anymore. i'm not even completely sure these new numbers are really what I decided on.

Regardless, the nitrates in my tank are about 13-15ppm and are undetectable coming out of the coil. I turned up the flow ever so slightly just now, and will check it again tomorrow. Thanks for all the help in the other thread rsman! It may not be perfect, but mine is working somewhat.

Jason

[BlackOnyx]

Did you finish it yet?

[slevesque]

There is a good and very long thread about a cheap way to reduce nitrate: a remote deep sand bed in a bucket. RDSB

Very cheap so I think i'll try it out eventualy.

[rsman]

jnowell:

do you have a bio chamber on that coil ? what are the nitrite readings out of the coil? that still seems a little slow but it will depend on your setup and age of the denitrator coils.

slevesque: RDSB
while its a good thread, and its a nice thing for reefs it just isnt going to be economical for a fish breeder to use a sand bucket, there are a couple of good threads on it in here also ?somewhere?

what it boils down to is it just cant keep up, VS a much smaller and only slightly more $ coil denitrator. and the stability long term is questionable(depending on which expert you listen to ), though again this might be more of a problem for breeders than a reef tank.

[Dman]

Originally posted by JHardman
Do a search for posts from Dman on nitrate filters.

JHardman, thanks all the same but the guy you want to talk to regarding the coils is rsman, I've built three of them so far and all of them have been stunning failures. There is a guy building them, look for dragonslayer in the DIY forum.

rsman, I know, I know, but I really haven't had the time.