PETCO bans all NEA Reef Club members!

[tgreene]

PETCO bans all NEA Reef Club members!

Now that I have everyones attention, this is something that filtered back to me this morning. I was "informed" that the local Petco "aquatic specilist" has told others in our community that a letter had been sent from the corporate office, instructing them that any and all members of the Northeast Arkansas Reef Club have been banned from their stores.

I just called and spoke with one of the managers who knew nothing about this, so he talked with the General Manager who has in fact confirmed this to be true.

It appears that Petco is far more concerned about a group of individuals that are concerned about livestock, then they are about taking the simple corrective measures to fix the existing problems.

As I've stated numerous times in our region, these problems and extremely poor conditions absolutely did not exist under the previous management. The Phosphates test well in excess of 2.50 and the Nitrates range between 50 and 60, with 60 being in the coral system.

-Tim

[uscharalph]

What a shame!

[tgreene]

It stems from the following......


Petco's corporate offices have been given ample time to officially respond, though for whatever reason they have chosen not to do so. Since this ultimately effects us all, the following information is now being made public.

It's important to keep in mind that under different management and especially with a different "Aquatics Specialist", these conditions did not exist! In fact, the Jonesboro Petco was known to carry very good livestock and have exceptionally well maintained systems and water quality.

The following are 2 letters that were presented to the local Petco manager in regards to the horrible water parameters within their systems.


Letter-1 was presented after a full round of testing was done in his presence (in his office) so that he could plainly see what is going on with their systems.

      Petco-letter-1.pdf

Letter-2 was presented in September, after several months of inaction which not only allowed the systems to become far worse, but cost many of our members (and the general public) a lot of money due to infested livestock which always ended up dying.

      Petco-letter-2.pdf


When the water quality is that poor, livestock has a very difficult time acclimating to our high quality systems, so they ultimately wither away and die. Due to their inactions in correcting what is wrong, and even going so far as to say that the deaths are likely due to problems in our systems, it's become painfully obvious that the only thing that they care about is selling REPLACEMENT livestock, over and over and over again!

[sperry]

Is there a thread with more details of what lead up to this?

[tgreene]

www.nea-reefkeeping.com -- {NE Arkansas Reef Club} --> {Forums} --> {Shop Talk}

There are numerous threads that span several months, covering too many incidents to count.


The above post is covered in our {Announcements} thread, to make all of our member aware of how serious this situation has actually become.

Also, we do not have any worthwhile stores within 100 miles, and Petco knows it!

-Tim

[tgreene]

Please pass this info and link this thread to your own local and regional clubs, because we absolutely need to work together to see that this blatent disregard for animal life cannot be allowed to continue.

It all boils down to the fact that I have repeatedly gone to local management, and due to his inaction over a several month period, I went to corporate and have made the information that I have very public in our small rural community... A community where word travels fast!

-Tim

[Hypo]

Very sad. I hate to lump them all together, as I know that the stores and their husbandry practices vary greatly depending on the individuals in charge, I hate PetCo, and will never shop there.

[RandyStacyE]

I wonder if this and/or these incidents could be legitimately deemed as animal cruelty.

I’d bet that your local newspaper would be interested in this info and may even want to have a reporter follow along during a ‘water quality test’.

[melev]

While I see your point, what I don't see in the letters is suggestions that Petco could possibly implement to resolve the water quality issues you've noted.

Having an 'exit strategy' would work better than listing the flaws alone.

First and foremost, I do believe it would be prudent to figure out a way to resolve this issue between the club and the pet store chain. When you say Ban, I'm assuming anyone that comes in to buy fish is now turned away based on some sort of visual or written list?

[raskal311]

Mug shot on wall entrance of building?

[tgreene]

Originally posted by melev
While I see your point, what I don't see in the letters is suggestions that Petco could possibly implement to resolve the water quality issues you've noted.

Having an 'exit strategy' would work better than listing the flaws alone.

Mark -- That was actually all covered in depth during the first meeting. At that time the GM actually asked if I would buy a refractometer for them (I did and obviously they reimbursed me), so they could begin on the proper path. The problem lies in that's as far as they ever traveled, and things are actually far worse than better.

Originally posted by melev
First and foremost, I do believe it would be prudent to figure out a way to resolve this issue between the club and the pet store chain. When you say Ban, I'm assuming anyone that comes in to buy fish is now turned away based on some sort of visual or written list?

Again we're a small community, and they know who's who! The real issue is that they appear to be much more hellbent of finding ways to not correct the problems, by attempting to shut us out. Their actions only continue to reinforce and validate our concerns, and what WE see is that Petco is putting more time and energy into not fixing things, than what it actually takes to make it all right.

-Tim

[tgreene]

Originally posted by RandyStacyE
I wonder if this and/or these incidents could be legitimately deemed as animal cruelty.

I’d bet that your local newspaper would be interested in this info and may even want to have a reporter follow along during a ‘water quality test’.

ASPCA, Humane Society, PETA, and the local media are all viable options that are certainly available to us, but since fish and corals don't have fuzzy ears and waggily tails, most of them really don't give a damn either.

I've made this "situation" public, and again would ask you all to carry this info to your own reef clubs, so that our INDIVIDUAL voices can be united to become much louder and stronger.

-Tim

[luke33]

Not to be on Petco's side by any means but it sounds like a bunch of local reefers decided to pick on petco.......if you want to single out a pet store you must do all the same tests at each of the pet stores around you. The petco's here are pretty good for the most part. I can name a few lfs that specialize in SW fish that are much worst. I can also say that probably 20-50% of the reefers post here on RC have Trates over 40-60 as well. Yes, its bad on the corals but its not going to affect the fish much. If your going to treat one lfs poorly, they you must do all teh proper tests to see if any others are the same. Sounds like you guys have to much time on your hands to me.

[Travis L. Stevens]

Tim, I'm going to have to play the devil's advocate on this one. I see your intentions are swell, and I hope the best, but as Mark had noted, you haven't offered the business a way to resolve the issue. In addition there are a few details lacking in the letters that could easily crown you as an unknowledgable consumer in their eyes. As we all know, you are far from it. I might suggest backing down on this a little. You're potentially making a bad name for your organization, and even other organizations by proceeding with this by using the NEA as a collective entity. Think about it like this; you've contacted corporate as a club and have asked for change without a way to resolve it. Hopefully they will eventually find ways to correct the issues at hand, but as a worst case scenario they will deny your claims, refute any changes, and prevent NEA member from purchasing there. If your area only has Petco to shop at, then you have just cut off your only ties to local livestock. Not all in your club may feel the same, and not all may appreciate being spoken for by one person. In addition, potential new members of your club may think twice before participating with the NEA if it is going to cut their ties with local stores. Lastly, you'll have put a sour taste in Petco corporate's mouth about marine aquarium clubs. You could have the potential to effect the retail establishment's outlook to other clubs nationwide that also have no other alternative but to purchase there or even may enjoy making purchases there.

In hind sight, it might be best to look over the letters you sent, find some details to revamp, maybe look it over legally with an attorney to make sure nothing is going to come back down on the NEA, and request an inperson meeting with Petco corporate.

In addition, filing a petition might be safer in the end. People that want to voice their opinions can, but those that don't feel the same can be left out.

[raddogz]

I am sorry it come to this.

I agree with Marc would it not have been feasible to resolve this issue through perhaps education rather than letters or am I missing something?

[tgreene]

Originally posted by raskal311
Mug shot on wall entrance of building?

It's more like a PA system blaring "Activist in aisle 4 -- repeat-- Activist in aisle 4!"

I kid you not, one day a few months back when I entered the store, a code blared across the PA system and suddenly I was being shadowed by 3 employees... It was rather obvious too, because there was only 1 or 2 other customers in the store.

-Tim

[raskal311]

hahahaha. what frag would I not give to see that.

“Code 4 Code 4, Tang police detected on the premises”

[tgreene]

Originally posted by raddogz
I am sorry it come to this.

I agree with Marc would it not have been feasible to resolve this issue through perhaps education rather than letters or am I missing something?

That's just it, and I wrote in my response to Mark that we have in fact, and on numerous occassions, tried to educate them.

They (Mgt & staff) have been invited to meetings and get-togethers, yet they routinely refuse.

They (Mgt & staff) have been invited to our homes for an opportunity to see and learn about our systems, yet they routinely refuse.

In the past however (under previous management) we had a very VERY good relationship with Petco which included ongoing education, and the livestock and parameters were always top notch because of it. Now, everything is covered friom head to tail with Ich and or other nasties, yet they could care less because unsuspecting customers continue to buy this livestock which then infests existing systems.

Back in March, a current client of mine was actually told to dose his REEF with Copper, and not knowing any better, he did... It was the "Aquatic Specialist" which made this suggestion, which ultimately cost my newbie client several thousand dollars.

We want nothing more than to properly educate them, but the "aquatic specialist" is a know-it-all hardass that swears nothing is wrong, and the General Manager seems to routinely back him up.

FWIW: We have done testing of the other store here in town, and it's the same thing... They do not care as long as they can all make a fast buck! The difference is that Petco used to have a phenominal system here, so we do know there is ultimately hope.

The other store actually allowed us as a club to come in a build a sustainable sump/fuge for them, but they freaked out as soon as they discovered that Nitrates were beginning to show up after a couple of weeks (they had high Amonia before, due to never having a full cycle), and ripped it all out and also banned us from their store. -- They had every possible nasty parasite you could imagine, high ammonia, stupidly high phosphates, a pH of below 7.6, and rotting livestock... We put in a lot of time and effort, but they refused to learn anything.

-Tim

[melev]

Geeze Tim, that's two for two.

Since they seem so reticent to accept help, I don't know what you could do to alleviate these problems. I guess tell them to visit my site for a bit.

[luke33]

Tim, i do understand your thoughts but its not a perfect world and you can't change everyone. Your goal is something that is not attainable unfortunately. You can only hope things get better instead of worst. Barking at employee's and trying to force them into action isn't the proper way to go about it. Inviting and being friendly and offering help is teh best method. If they don't accept it then atleast you tried. It sounds like your getting to the point of rounding up your troops and picketing in front of all the lfs's around. That will only anger your lfs and it will get worst. I see more harm then help in the path you are going down. And yes it is ashame the only thing that is getting hurt are the innocent fish, corals and inverts.

[steve the plumb]

I would suggest to shop online form a reputable dealer.You are better off buying online along with your friends from the club.It will cost you less and you can buy as a group.I would think just boycotting the store will help when it comes to salt water sales.I had a similar problem here with red bugs when I confronted the owner he gave me a bunch or crap about how its easy to get ride of them and how do you know it came from my store.He basically said he didn't have red bugs yet his corals were in bad condition and I see now he doesn't carry many corals.I just don't buy livestock from him anymore.When a business owner gives you a bad taste cut them off.I don't buy what I used to buy from this store.I try not to shop there.I try to shop more online.I also see many prices for fish are cheaper online.

[tgreene]

Ohhhhhhhh where to start... BECAUSE IT EFFECTS US ALL IN THE LOCAL REGION!


If somebody buys an infected whatever at the store, then brings it home where the parasites continue to fester until the fish dies, then those parasites will find new hosts and the cycle will continue, until someday, through a frag swap, these same parasites are transferred into several other trusted and otherwise well maintained systems. The nasties are transferred from system to system like Herpes or Aids.... I have seen Ich, Black Ich, Sundial Snails, Reef Spiders, Bad Nudies, every typr of Flatworm, and Red Bugs come from these stores, and numerous people have told them about it time and time again. Any of these could easily slip into our systems and wipe us out!

-Tim

[InLimbo87]

Originally posted by tgreene
ASPCA, Humane Society, PETA, and the local media are all viable options that are certainly available to us, but since fish and corals don't have fuzzy ears and waggily tails, most of them really don't give a damn either.

I've made this "situation" public, and again would ask you all to carry this info to your own reef clubs, so that our INDIVIDUAL voices can be united to become much louder and stronger.

-Tim

Having PETA on your side would truly destroy all credibility to your logical and mature argument. PETA is a very extremist organization that believes firmly that no animals should be kept as pets.

If they do help you it will probably involve running into the store, grabbing all the fish and corals that they can and dropping them into the ocean. Seriously, they are a joke of an organization...

[USC-fan]

I can understand why petco banned your club from the store. You went about this the whole wrong way....When a local superpet started carry salt water fish/coral here in charleston, someone put bleach in their water system many times and they stop carry salt water fish. If this store see you as an activist they will fear something like this will happen.

It may be too late but i would ask the GM if your club could volunteer at the store to help fix the problems. In return maybe they could: give your club a 5% discount, let you hold club meetings at the store, or at least post flyer's for you club. Since this is your only LFS i would try to work with them to fix the problem.

[oct2274]

sounds like you and your club need to start quarantining things if you are worrying about spreading parasites,etc around.