Can we talk about Zeo, if we promise to be civil?

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Tom Berry
Do brightly colored sps have fewer zooanthella (sp. ?) than brown ones?

Nope, they could also have more.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by italianreef
I wonder why everybody is willing to promptly accept the idea that corals become lighter in color because iron is reducing the zoox concentration or even directly affecting the pigments.

They could become darker too. Just like feeding any plant iron.

[Habib]

Tom & Alessandro: very good posts with good questions and comments.

FWIW, I did ask myself the same things before.

I'll try to comment later today, depending on how often I'm not being disturbed.

Might therefore comment on not all the points at the same time.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Habib
Regarding coral coloration, Eric Borneman has written a nice Coral coloration FAQ:

No wonder you guys are so confused about this.
While you're at it, ask yourself this too.

If zoox only come in brown, why does a purple monti turn clear when it bleaches?



I don't know about you guys, but our zoox down here come in every color of the rainbow.

[italianreef]

Originally posted by Bomber
I don't know about you guys, but our zoox down here come in every color of the rainbow.

ok. I'd suggest using the word "generally" or "commonly"
"Zoox are generally golden brown in color"

So that most people can understand why you are right and, at the same time, a reef is light brown when looking from the plane

[Bomber]

But generally and commonly most corals are not tropical either. So anytime you would say generally or commonly, you have to take it all into account.

You guys don't want them collecting the brown ones do you?

[Habib]

Quote:

"Because the zooxanthellae are responsible for the green and brown color that characterises most corals, the loss of zooxanthellae can leave the coral tissue colorless, rendering the bright white of the coral skeleton starkly visible. However, many corals also have other pigments in their tissue, giving them the yellow, pink or blue tinge often seen in shallow water. Coral bleaching sometimes enhances these colors, resulting in bright pastel colors mixed amongst the bright white and pale brown of most corals."


I don't know about you guys, but our zoox down here come in every color of the rainbow.

I would love to see a scientific paper describing them.

[Habib]

Originally posted by italianreef
I wonder why everybody is willing to promptly accept the idea that corals become lighter in color because iron is reducing the zoox concentration or even directly affecting the pigments.

As soon as you start using the z. method you'll see decreasing levels of nutrients. I started with 0.07 mg/L PO4 and 0.20 mg/l NO3 and after a few weeks I reached steady levels of around 0.01-0.02 mg/L PO4 (photometer) and no detectable nitrates. The zoox concentration in the corals progressively decreased during this period in the same way, allowing the already exsisting colorful pigments behind the zoox to show up. Corals did not become "fancy" colored, they showed the original colors better than in a not-so-low nutrient tank.

Why all this should be explained with iron "poisoning", induced zoox loss, etc., and not simply as the result of decreased nutrient levels?

BTW, Habib, great work , just commenting on some conclusions . I believe the Zeostart2 is binding the iron and helping exporting it. Nothing to do with colors, not directly at least.

In the test report I said: This might be able to explain the increase in coloration despite the presence of nutrients.



It is my impression that the coloration is there while there are still nutrients present (don't neglect ammonia, nitrite and some other nutrients). There are bio-indicators for it.

[Habib]

Originally posted by Tom Berry
Do brightly colored sps have fewer zooanthella (sp. ?) than brown ones?

Most sps keepers prefer brightly colored corals to brown ones, and these are the ones that are collected. It seems to me that the corals we are trying to keep are not typical of the wild population, but have special characteristics that cause them to be colorful.

They come in with spectacular colors, but often brown out in aquarists tanks. Isn't this browning out caused by an increase in zooanthella density?

Part of the theory being put forth is that iron is being released from the zeolites, and reduces zooanthella density. Assuming the theory is correct, is this necessarily a bad thing, if one's goal is to maintain the vivid colors of freshly imported sps?

Also, it is my understanding that having fewer zooanthella enables the coral to put more energy into growth. Again, is this a bad thing?

Tom

The same coral next to each other can have different perceived color in the wild. There are "genetic" variations.

Having said that, zooxanthellae can be present in an aquarium specimen in different numbers (density per area tissue) and can have also different amounts of pigments. Brown specimens can have "normal" number of zoox but higher number of pigments but can also have a higher number of zoox.


Part of the theory being put forth is that iron is being released from the zeolites, and reduces zooanthella density. Assuming the theory is correct, is this necessarily a bad thing, if one's goal is to maintain the vivid colors of freshly imported sps?


Assuming it is correct, then some might perhaps consider it not bad if it the health of the coral is good and does not harm other organisms.

Also, it is my understanding that having fewer zooanthella enables the coral to put more energy into growth. Again, is this a bad thing?


I'm not sure that this is always true because in the literature, a low zoox count combined with a high mitotic index is described as bad.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Habib
I would love to see a scientific paper describing them.

Hab, when a coral bleaches it expels zoox only, not protein pigments. When a purple coral bleaches it turns clear. Only the zoox were expelled, no protein pigments were expelled, and all the color was coming from the zoox.

[Habib]

Originally posted by Bomber
Hab, when a coral bleaches it expels zoox only, not protein pigments. When a purple coral bleaches it turns clear. Only the zoox were expelled, no protein pigments were expelled, and all the color was coming from the zoox.

...Rtms5 is a blue non fluorescent pocilloporin from the reef-building coral Montipora efflorescens which has strong sequence and structural homology to both green fluorescent protein from Aqueorea victoria (GFP) and a red fluorescent protein from Discosoma coral (DsRed). ....

[Bomber]

They turn clear Hab. Not light blue, red, green, yellow, or purple.

They don't expel protein pigments, only zoox.

[Habib]

Originally posted by Bomber
They turn clear Hab. Not light blue, red, green, yellow, or purple.

They don't expel protein pigments, only zoox.

I believe that but that still does not prove that zoox can be blue.

All the scientific publications I consulted (and there are many) don't support your opinion. In fact they support the opposite.

From Tyree (symbiodinium is the zooxantehlla):

Section II - Light Collecting Pigments within the Coral Animal
The brown coloration within photosynthetic stony corals is due to the light collecting pigments found within the corals symbiotic algae.
Photosynthetic stony corals can also possess many other colors that range from violets, blues, greens, yellows, oranges to reds and can include numerous combinations and shades of these primary colors. All these exotic colorations are due to pigments found within the tissue of the coral animal, and not within the symbiodinium. Coral pigments cannot directly transfer collected light energy to the corals symbiotic algae, but in some deep water corals their pigments appear to be modifying the existing light field by fluorescing one color or wavelength of

[Bomber]

Then I guess they are all wrong. LOL

What color does a bleached red anemone turn? How about a bleached green and purple giant clam?

You can't bleach a coral and have it expel protein pigments.

[Bomber]

this is all I could find quick. I wouldn't call it a "scientific" paper but then you didn't reference a scientific paper either. LOL

http://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/algaeclass/symbios.htm

The chloroplasts of dinoflagellates may be red, green, or blue-green, but are most commonly brown in color.

But then you guys don't snatch the brown ones off the reef either.

[Bomber]

You guys think you're starving some brown zoox and that brown zoox is blocking the color of your coral. And by starving it out, you let the real color of the coral come through!!

What you're really doing it feeding a colored zoox - plant fertilizer - and making that colored zoox more intense.

ROTFL

[ldrhawke]

Originally posted by Bomber
You guys think you're starving some brown zoox and that brown zoox is blocking the color of your coral. And by starving it out, you let the real color of the coral come through!!

What you're really doing it feeding a colored zoox - plant fertilizer - and making that colored zoox more intense.

ROTFL

This is considerably different than the initial impression of what the ZEO process did to the coral by some how poisoning the coral to get unnatural colors. What ZEO is doing may simply expelling the brown zoox, or maybe increasing the colored zoox which the displaces the brown zoox, and improving the density of colored zoox.

It also answers a question, Is this unhealthy or detrimental to the coral? If it was the coral would die; because they can only live a few months with out zoox. This sheds a totally different picture as to what the ZEO process may be doing and how it affects coral health.

[ldrhawke]

Originally posted by Bomber
You guys think you're starving some brown zoox and that brown zoox is blocking the color of your coral. And by starving it out, you let the real color of the coral come through!!

What you're really doing it feeding a colored zoox - plant fertilizer - and making that colored zoox more intense.

ROTFL

This and your article is considerably different explanation than the initial impression of what the ZEO process did to the coral by some how poisoning the coral to get unnatural colors. What ZEO is doing may actually be simply expelling the brown zoox, or maybe increasing the colored zoox which the displaces the brown zoox, and improving the density of colored zoox.

It also answers a question, Is this unhealthy or detrimental to the coral? If it was the coral would die; because they can only live a few months with out zoox. This sheds a totally different picture as to what the ZEO process may be doing and how it affects coral health.

[Bomber]

I told you, "it doesn't work the way you think it does".

[Habib]

Originally posted by Bomber
this is all I could find quick. I wouldn't call it a "scientific" paper but then you didn't reference a scientific paper either. LOL

http://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/algaeclass/symbios.htm

The chloroplasts of dinoflagellates may be red, green, or blue-green, but are most commonly brown in color.

But then you guys don't snatch the brown ones off the reef either.

No that is certainly not a scientific publication. But despite that it still says:

Zooxanthellae are usually a brownish color (Smith 32)

It doesn't mention anywhere that zooxanthellae can be the colors mentioned.

Zooxanthellae is a dinoflagellate but not all dinoflagellates are zooxanthellae.


but then you didn't reference a scientific paper either'

I'll do.

[Habib]

or maybe increasing the colored zoox which the displaces the brown zoox, and improving the density of colored zoox.


There are no colored zoox.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Habib
It doesn't mention anywhere that zooxanthellae can be the colors mentioned.

Yes it does Hab, that was a quote. It's about 1/2 way down in the introduction.

" Zooxanthellae are unicellular flagellates. The chloroplasts of dinoflagellates may be red, green, or blue-green, but are most commonly brown in color. Zooxanthellae are usually a brownish color (Smith 32). "

But you guys don't "usually" snatch the brown ones off the reef.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Habib
There are no colored zoox.

Fine, then corals, anemones, and clams expel protein pigments along with zoox when they bleach.

[ldrhawke]

Originally posted by Habib
or maybe increasing the colored zoox which the displaces the brown zoox, and improving the density of colored zoox.


There are no colored zoox.

"Pigments produced by the symbiotic corals protect both the host and the algae from ultraviolet radiation. The algae also receives inorganic materials from its host (Sze 1993). Under stressful conditions, such as high temperatures, coral polyps expel their zooxanthellae. The zooxanthellae aid in giving the reef-building corals their striking colors. When the zooxanthellae are expelled, the corals become white masses of calcium carbonate."

I'm assuming pigments mean more than brown.

[Bomber]

and you would be correct.