Wild caught really that bad vs. cultured? - Page 2

MiddletonMark · #26 11/29/2006, 10:30 AM

Wild corals have to be the source of the parasites. They're not evolving in our tanks.

Could be the LFS, but the facilities in LA + the very regularity of pests on maricultured corals seriously raise issues with those places.

If it's on the racks in the wild or in the LA importers ... IMO it doesn't matter. The problem is tsomewhere in
the supply chain ... and my best choice is to avoid it altogether IMO.

RichConley · #27 11/29/2006, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
Wild corals have to be the source of the parasites. They're not evolving in our tanks.

Could be the LFS, but the facilities in LA + the very regularity of pests on maricultured corals seriously raise issues with those places.

If it's on the racks in the wild or in the LA importers ... IMO it doesn't matter. The problem is tsomewhere in
the supply chain ... and my best choice is to avoid it altogether IMO.

Right, wild sources are the initial cause, but I honestly feel you're much more likely to get parasites from Aquacultured stuff than wild. Theres too much unprotected coral swapping going on.

MiddletonMark · #28 11/29/2006, 01:18 PM

It's a hole most of us dig for ourselves, you're right.

jimsta · #29 11/29/2006, 05:01 PM

I agree with Al G........ It depends on what you call aquacultured. Most of the corals that LFS's sell as aquacultured are really Maricultured. Maricultured corals are usually grown in small lagoons with high light and high amounts of nutrients on big concrete slabs. Once they hit our tanks they usually change (for better or worse) depending on the individual tank. But this si not different than most sps, as every tank is different and there is always a little change.

The maricultured corals are more prone to parasites and I have noticed that since the stores have been bringing in the maricultured corals, more and more redbug outbreaks have been spotted.

Aquacultured from someones tank or an actual AQUAculture wholesaler are the real deal. These are the ones that, in my opinion, are the best. That is, as long as they are not infected with redbugs.

I agree that the wild caught colonies are very hard to keep completely healthy with no die off, and that the frags almost always do better than the whole colony.

Hope this helps.

whap · #30 11/29/2006, 07:00 PM

The whole issue is every coral you have or see started off in the ocean,all theses high price frags you see such as pink lemonade started off as a throw away (wild) rescue coral.My point being is that with good parameters you can maintain either wild or aquacultured.Some of the best corals i get in my store are wild ,Ialmost can't believe the colors sometimes.What i have noticed is wild colonies will not tolerate the same fluctuations in husbandry as aquacultured,Enjoy the hobby everyone.

BoxsterDude · #31 11/29/2006, 11:24 PM

This is a crap shoot, I quit purchasing wild corals for over two years. Then I ran into corals I could not get by other means. I would recommend 3 to 4th generation tank grown as a 1st choice, aqua cultra as a 2nd and wild only if you can not live with out it. I see the future of our reefs as very fragile and many retailers just making bucks, but thats what pays the bills.

End note, research your purchase before you buy. Don't buy if you have doubts on your systems ability to maintain the proper conditions.

Be SMART

reefez · #32 11/29/2006, 11:54 PM

Let's not forget that all cultured corals we're wild corals at one time.

just dave · #33 11/30/2006, 12:37 AM

I've often thought the same thing about maricultured corals that was stated by Al G. As these corals are generally "grown" in areas that are easier to access and not form areas that they are usually found ,they may have higher pest loads due to the fact that the natural predators of said pests may not be present in the "grow out" areas.

I think the biggest reason for the success or failure of certain colonies in captivity is the chain of custody and the size/growth pattern of those colonies.

Local/Stateside corals that are fragged, grown, and sold/traded have a very short chain of custody and are usually pretty small . They go through less and the small size means they are better able to adapt to the new environment they are placed in.

Wild harvested corals are usually larger and denser and go through a lot before they end up in our care. They may be on "the edge" and the new homes they are placed in may not provide adequate flow patterns that correspond well with the growth form and density they have taken on. This could be especially true of many holding/QT systems. As anyone, that has grown these corals for awhile, knows the growth in branch and colony density is influenced by the water flow characteristics and IME more by the type of water movement as opposed to a certain turnover level. Large homegrown colonies can do just as poorly when moved or transplanted for the same reasons.

I think the Maricultured corals fall in between. The size is smaller though the journey can be just as long. The packing techniques for these corals are usually better and their smaller size usually means a higher water volume to coral mass in the shipping bag.

IME the best success rates for larger/denser wild colonies comes when you open the colonies up. Cutting the colonies in half ,thirds ,quarters ,etc. improves their survival IME. Rich C touched on this when he mentioned that the frags he takes from new colonies have a higher survival rate compared to the actual colony itself.

dvanacker · #34 11/30/2006, 09:29 AM

Good post Dave. I agree totally on the conclusions you've drawn. Wild colonies are larger in most causes, and have grown to specific conditions in the wild. When moved they don't adapt as well. That IS why frags taken from a wild colonies have a better chance of surviving.

Just wish my LFS told me this a while when I bought 6 wilds and only 3 survived. I eventually even ended up fraging 2 of the left overs do to some basal STN, the frags have done well and grown considerably.

MiddletonMark · #35 11/30/2006, 10:46 AM

Who buys brown frags? Not many I know.

Taking that fact - it suggests to me that most 3-4th generation captive frags have been proven to be hardy [survived multiple reefkeepers], to color nice [no one's buying brown frags] ... and likely to grow at appreciable rate [able to be fragged].

In that sense, there's a LOT of selection that has already happened for most multi-generational frags that suggests they should thrive in captivity.

If it's my money I'm betting with - I'll choose the demonstrated winner vs. the unknown. Yes, every frag came from the ocean at one time - but considering the quantities that come in yearly + the high % of loss during transit, at LFS, in the first 6 months ... IMO it seems to me that the odds are very low to get something from the wild that will end up being a gorgeous multi-generational frag down the line.

Then again, just my opinion. But when considering how a frag ends up becoming `multi-generational' ... it strongly suggests a proven track record to me.

MiddletonMark · #36 11/30/2006, 10:48 AM

I should add, great posts Al G + Dave.

just dave · #37 11/30/2006, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
Who buys brown frags? Not many I know.

They are my favorites,...really.

They are cheaper, are more 'n likely going to change color under good conditions, and I like watching the change. If they stay brown, what did you expect? That's what you get for buying a brown one.

I generally choose the corals based on their shape and growth patterns as opposed to the color.

My favorite thing about these corals is their ability to change color and form based on their environment.