please help before all my fish die!

[Nemo 79]

my asfur angle about a week and a half ago got one cloudy eye, almost like a cloudy film over the eye, so i treated the tank with prazi-pro for flukes, (thats what LFS told me to do) the one eye looked alittle better but then all of a sudden both eyes got real cloudy then he had ick. he died this past saturday.

now yesterday my domino damsel has 2 cloudy eyes and what looks like ick, and today about 4 more of my fish have slightly cloudy eyes.

the water tests out fine, i dont know what to do, should i keep adding prazi-pro or should i try somthing else?

BTW. its a 250g with a 60g wet dry/sump top fathom 3 footer skimmer. 8 fish ranging from 1 inch - 8 inches

[Mad Scientist]

I'd probably start with a 25% water change and then treat with one of the marcyan type/brand meds they work great. medicate soon. soon luck

[dave67]

if running carbon dont forget to take it out before you start medication and the best of luck and keep us all informed

dave

[moggyhill]

sounds like a fungus, do a major water change and treat, let us know

[unleashed13]

i normally use a product called spectrogram its an ulra wide spectrum antibiotic.
used for:
abdomninal bloat
red body patches hemorrhage
white body slime
prutuding scales
dropsy
becterail infections
furunculosis
columnaris
fungal infections
cloudy eye
vibro
gram-negative bacteria
..this product is not safe for invertes
another i have used is melafix this can be used in the main tank
will not harm inverts
this is a natural antibacterial remedy
used for cloudy eye pop eye body slime mouth fungus open wounds or sores red body patches and fin rot.

[bartzenegger]

in the future place fish in a qt 4 weeks! will your neck!!! trust me!

[illnino]

bacterial infection, usually due to bad water quality. if youre not already doing this, do 25% weekly water changes...

[leebca]

The first thing I'd recommend Nemo 79 is a careful diagnosis of the problem. If it is Marine Ich Cryptocaryon irritans then there is a definite way to proceed. If it is bacterial, it is a different treatment. If it is a fluke or ? then there would be a specific treatment for that. If you are using the wrong treatment, the fish will suffer.

Although cloudy eye is often associated with a bacterial infection, it is also a precursor to seeing the white spots on your fish from a Marine Ich infection. Complications of a Marine Ich infection include bacterial infections.

I think you need to be informed and posting here is not practical for everything you need to become familiar with. First, the diagnosis. . .You might want to read this to verify if your fish/tank has Marine Ich or not:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html
There's a photo of an infected fish at the above link.

As suggested by bartzenegger, you need to have a good quarantine process/procedure in effect to prevent diseases from entering your display tank. About the best read on that is this Reef Central article:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-1...ture/index.htm

If you're still unsure about the diagnosis of what your fish/tank might be infected with, try this link for some help with that or post a photo here for us to see:
http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/diagnosticresources/

We're here to help with specific questions and to provide additional reading. Hang in there!

[LisaD]

It sounds like you are treating the main tank. I would avoid antibiotics, as they will crash your biofilter, unless you have a plan to get it back fast.

I agree you need an accurate diagnosis.

What are your tank parameters?

pH
specific gravity
temperature
ammonia
nitrite
nitrate

How long has the tank been set up?

You might consider hyposaline treatment if it is a FO tank. This is sometimes helpful against bacteria and can reduce stress on the fish.

see
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...osalinity.html

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by LisaD
It sounds like you are treating the main tank. I would avoid antibiotics, as they will crash your biofilter, unless you have a plan to get it back fast.

I ]

Lisa - IME this is not true. Most antibiotics that are available to aquarists will only kill gram postive bacteria - the bacteria in the bio-filter will not be affected.

That said, treating in one's show tank is never ideal - although sometimes it's pretty much impossible to catch the fish.

[bartzenegger]

Originally posted by Mad Scientist
Lisa - IME this is not true. Most antibiotics that are available to aquarists will only kill gram postive bacteria - the bacteria in the bio-filter will not be affected.

That said, treating in one's show tank is never ideal - although sometimes it's pretty much impossible to catch the fish.

they make that claim but ........ if you read the labels most still recommend treating in a qt.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by bartzenegger
they make that claim but ........ if you read the labels most still recommend treating in a qt.

No doubt, and I would certainly recommend a Q tanks as well. I'm sure antibiotics have an effect on the balance on the tank - but I don't think they will have a signifigent effect on bio-filtration.

BTW, the one bonus of treating in your show tank is that if you have a cyano problem (and many disease prone tanks do, as they often have poor water quality) the meds will kill that cyano as well.

Again, a Q tank is always the best option.

[unleashed13]

accually it would cause detrimental effects on your boi system.for example we cycle our tank for sometimes months before adding live stock to them.for what purpose? to build the proper balance good of bacteria we may place a couple ok lets call them dirty fish, damsels ect to create waste and mayeb a few live rocks which are loaded with life and bactera ich and most forms of parasites or bacteria do not effect invert .due to that fact we never have to treat them for such illnesses.fish on the other hand we all know they can get just about anything and even the smallest thing off balance can be detrimental to their health theer for we must do everything in our power to keep them healthy in a balanced eco system so to speak.we add live rock live sand crushed corals to add posative bacteria and yes sometimes we get some bad in our good.we also need that good to help combat the bad.by treating your main tank for a fish illness or bacteria in a manner that spacificly states (DO NOT )then dont do it.by doing such you are killing off all bacterias good and bad jepradizing the entire eco system you just spent months upon months or yrs even at what expence to create .ok if you have fish only maybe it wont be as bad right.think how long it took to get that tank cycled .common sence should be telling you this poduct has this warning for a reason.these fish are our babies would you jepradize your babies lively hood for a little less effort? just food for thought

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by unleashed13
accually it would cause detrimental effects on your boi system.for example we cycle our tank for sometimes months before adding live stock to them.for what purpose? to build the proper balance good of bacteria we may place a couple ok lets call them dirty fish, damsels ect to create waste and mayeb a few live rocks which are loaded with life and bactera ich and most forms of parasites or bacteria do not effect invert .due to that fact we never have to treat them for such illnesses.fish on the other hand we all know they can get just about anything and even the smallest thing off balance can be detrimental to their health theer for we must do everything in our power to keep them healthy in a balanced eco system so to speak.we add live rock live sand crushed corals to add posative bacteria and yes sometimes we get some bad in our good.we also need that good to help combat the bad.by treating your main tank for a fish illness or bacteria in a manner that spacificly states (DO NOT )then dont do it.by doing such you are killing off all bacterias good and bad jepradizing the entire eco system you just spent months upon months or yrs even at what expence to create .ok if you have fish only maybe it wont be as bad right.think how long it took to get that tank cycled .common sence should be telling you this poduct has this warning for a reason.these fish are our babies would you jepradize your babies lively hood for a little less effort? just food for thought

There are 2 main types of bacteria Gram postive and Gram negative (differences in the cell wall) - the antibitoics that are available for us to treat our fish only kill gram postive bacteria - therefore they are not going to kill the gram negative that carry out bio-filtration.

So, I think your post is pretty off-base.

In fact, the warnings on the products I've had to use state they will NOT warm your bio-filter.

Again, a Q tank is ideal for a number of reasons (you can go hypo, no other fish will pick on them, it's easy to control water quality, etc) but the fact remains that if you treat your tank with a anti-biotic your biofiltration is NOT going to crash.

[Nocturnal]

Originally posted by unleashed13
accually it would cause detrimental effects on your boi system.for example we cycle our tank for sometimes months before adding live stock to them.for what purpose? to build the proper balance good of bacteria we may place a couple ok lets call them dirty fish, damsels ect to create waste and mayeb a few live rocks which are loaded with life and bactera ich and most forms of parasites or bacteria do not effect invert .due to that fact we never have to treat them for such illnesses.fish on the other hand we all know they can get just about anything and even the smallest thing off balance can be detrimental to their health theer for we must do everything in our power to keep them healthy in a balanced eco system so to speak.we add live rock live sand crushed corals to add posative bacteria and yes sometimes we get some bad in our good.we also need that good to help combat the bad.by treating your main tank for a fish illness or bacteria in a manner that spacificly states (DO NOT )then dont do it.by doing such you are killing off all bacterias good and bad jepradizing the entire eco system you just spent months upon months or yrs even at what expence to create .ok if you have fish only maybe it wont be as bad right.think how long it took to get that tank cycled .common sence should be telling you this poduct has this warning for a reason.these fish are our babies would you jepradize your babies lively hood for a little less effort? just food for thought

Wow, I think I lost a brain cell trying to read that. Proper English and punctuation goes a long was in creating an intelligent post.

I agree with Mad Scientist on this one. Let's think about the statements you made. If these medicines killed off your gram+ and gram- bacteria, how would one possibly use it? These medications usually take several days if not a couple weeks to work. If they also killed off all the bacteria that processed the waste from your fish in quarantine, then you would have to make daily if not hourly water changes to prevent the nutrients (ammonia, nitrite) in the tank from building up, therefore negating the effect of the drug.

[redpaulhus]

I thought common Maracyn-2 treated gram-negative (never mind others that are allegedly wide-spectrum and treat both gram+ and gram-) ???

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by redpaulhus
I thought common Maracyn-2 treated gram-negative (never mind others that are allegedly wide-spectrum and treat both gram+ and gram-) ???

I'm not an expert, but if memory serves "maracyn 2" is erythromycin - that stuff only kills gram postive bacteria.

Lots of these companies use the term "broad spectrum" but it is usually meant to mean only that it kills lots of different species of gram postive bacteria. A number of years ago (before I knew better) I introduced a massive set of doese of erythromycin into a show tank that's only source of bio-filtration was a big, old school wet/dry - I never experienced any spike in ammonia.

There are very good reasons to use a Q tank - killing your bio-filtration IN GENERAL is not one of them.

[Nocturnal]

Again, fact of the matter is, if any of these medicines wiped out your biological filtration also, nothing would ever be sold. Every person that ever used it would wipe out their entire tank (not a good selling point) if not using a quarantine tank and even still, using this medicine would wipe that out too. You wouldn't be able to sustain any life in there due to the nutrient blooms. Doing water changes once a day to prevent waste build up would negate the use of the medication.

[LisaD]

so you are saying you don't hesitate to medicate your display tank with antibiotics?

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by LisaD
so you are saying you don't hesitate to medicate your display tank with antibiotics?

If this is directed at me, I would always use a Q tank. I haven't had disease problems in years (since I started using LR based tanks with big skimmers).

BTW, Per several PMs I stand corrected on Maracyn 2 - it's not erthomycin - it's another med that does have some gram-negative activity, but apparently not enough to harm your biofiltration - still I would be espically concerned about using it.

[Curtis1]

Nemo, hey, sent you a $100 a month ago, still have not rec'd the items I bought from you ??? I have both e-mailed amd PM'ed you, but have not heard from back from you yet. What is going on !!!!!

[clownlady]

Originally posted by Mad Scientist
Lisa - IME this is not true. Most antibiotics that are available to aquarists will only kill gram postive bacteria - the bacteria in the bio-filter will not be affected.

That said, treating in one's show tank is never ideal - although sometimes it's pretty much impossible to catch the fish.

I agree...Maracyn -Two is a great help and will not disturb or destroy your biofilters. I have used Maracyn-Two in my main reef with no problems. If you want to know what I did just ask.

Good luck!

[clownlady]

Originally posted by Nocturnal
Again, fact of the matter is, if any of these medicines wiped out your biological filtration also, nothing would ever be sold. Every person that ever used it would wipe out their entire tank (not a good selling point) if not using a quarantine tank and even still, using this medicine would wipe that out too. You wouldn't be able to sustain any life in there due to the nutrient blooms. Doing water changes once a day to prevent waste build up would negate the use of the medication.

Thanks Nocturnal...before you folks proceed, please read this...http://www.reefs.org/library/article/r_toonen.html

Come on people! DO YOUR RESEARCH before you make a statement here. First of all Maracyn contains erythromycin, Maracyn-Two contains Minocycline. Two very different meds for different ailments one gram positive and one gram negative. You have to know the difference between neg and pos when dealing with meds.

For Maracyn....This one is GRAM POSITIVE, with B complex vitamins, antibiotic (Erythromycin) tablets recommended for the treatment of body fungus, popeye, gill disease, fin and tail rot, and secondary infections. B vitamins added to stimulate metabolism and improve appetite.

For Maracyn-Two... by the way this med is GRAM NEGATIVE with B complex vitamins, antibiotic (Minocycline) tablets recommended for the treatment of popeye, gill disease, fin and tail rot, dropsy, septicemia, secondary and internal infections. B vitamins added to stimulate metabolism and improve appetite. The great thing about this med is that it will work even when your fish will not eat.

While Mardel does not promote the use of any of these meds in a reef Maracyn-Two is the exception. And I don't just say this, I have used it in my reef(didn't have a QT)and had no problems. As a matter of fact, once my fish were cured of septicemia, they are more vibrant and healthy.

If I had a QT at the time I would have used it, but I did not so I had to carefully monitor everything in my tank for 6 days, and instead of a 25% water change, I did a 30% water change once, added fresh carbon, restarted my UV and started my skimmer. Everything is still the same in my tank...great!

Even if you have tried this method and it did not work, does not mean it's bad for everyone else. Conditions in your tank could be terrible, too terrible to use anything!

I am not advising you to use Maracyn-Two, but I am letting you know it's good if you have to use it and reef safe, or was safe in my reef which contains over 80 different corals, 4 anemones, sponges, 2 hippos, 2 true percs, two sebaes, 2 cleaner shrimp, 5 peppermint shrimp, 2 scooter blennies, 1 diamond goby, 1 orange star, 2 purple serpent stars, lots of baby white sand sifting stars, anemone crab, hermit crabs and loads of snails. All are thriving after the use of Maracyn-Two!!!

Use this link for accurate info on the use and ingredients of Maracyn and Maracyn-Two...http://www.mardel-labs.com/mardel/sfish.html or this one...http://www.aquariumguys.com/yhst-853...racynii1.html. I also reccomend purchasing Maracyn-Two through this store as it costs about 13 bucks less than at the LFS. I paid $20 bucks for 16 tabs.

I was also in direct contact with a rep from Mardel Labs while using Maracyn-Two and got great emails and phone calls. The folks at Mardel are great communicators and will help you any way possible!

This post is not meant to upset anyone or make myself appear like an expert because I am not. I am just asking that everyone calm down and just research your info...that's all!


Stop causing panic!


PS
http://www.aquariumguys.com/yhst-853...aracynii1.html although says freshwater, it comes for saltwater as well, which is best suited obviously...lol!

Information: Bacterial infections are often difficult to diagnose due to the many different types. Orange or red streaks on the body is usually the only fool-proof method for the determination of a bacterial infection.

Information: Dropsy is not a disease. It is, however, a sign of an internal bacterial infection. It is so often a symptom of bacterial infections that it has been classified separately.

Information: Fungal Infections is a very common disorder which infects all kinds of marine fish. It is intensified greatly with fish having damaged fins or cuts and scrapes. It is also much more likely in poor water conditions in which there are unacceptable levels of ammonia or nitrites. Fungal infections are also a sign of bullying by other fish. Fin nippers will damage the fins of other fish making them more susceptible to fungal infections and external bacterial infections such as fin and tail rot.

Information: There are many different types of internal bacterial infections. However, they are relatively easy to cure.

Information: Velvet, or Oodinium, is a very common disease which resembles Ich. The white pustules are much finer and are located mainly on the body. It is a little easier to cure than Ich, since the life cycle is not so rapid. It commonly follows chilling or stress caused by transportation or poor water quality.

Information: Parasitic infestation is perhaps the easiest to diagnose. The fish must be removed from the tank while the parasite is removed. Follow up treatment is essential to prevent fungal or bacterial growth.

[Nemo 79]

well the fish are fine, i only lost a angel and a damsel. the fish are doing great now. i did a 130g water change and treated with prazi-pro again for 5 days, did another 100g water change and the fish are fine now.

while i agree that treating in a hospital tank is ideal, try putting 8 hand sized fish in any size hospital tank.

[unleashed13]

ohh trust me I know exactly what you mean.glad everyone is doing better now .sorry for your losses