YWG: lost *another* nest!

[NicoleC]

Alan and Amy are "oceanarus"

Some of my bookmarked threads on the subject below. Fun reading in chronological order... if you've got the time:
2/12/2003: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=151572
3/10/2003: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=161991
4/27/2003: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=181159
11/22/2003: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=273623
2/8/2004: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=315164


And my part I thread of the saga:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=347239

[Kathy55g]

Wow, thank you.

[NicoleC]

I must have a thousand babies, if not more, and only about 1/3 of the nest hatched! The rest of the nest looks healthy with good eggs, but it's not hatching. I'll give it until just after dark tonight.

I tried to take the kreisel out, but I literally could not get it out of the water without taking babies stuck to it. No biggie; I turned it a bit so it won't make a stagnant area and I'll leave it in there for a while.

Rotifer density looks good, but not as dense as this morning, so I think at least some of them are eating. And the algae is less dense, too, so the rots are eating and hopefully have fully stomachs, too. Ammonia tests at 0.

Woo hoo, I have a real hatch! Okay, now for the hard(er) part...

...sometimes I fell like the Dunkin' Donuts guy. "Time to clean the rotifers."

Everyone loves baby pictures, right?

[Morgman]

If you can spare some room, pull a few scoops of rots out of your rot tank and start a new culture. When you hit the 10-14 day period you will be sure that you have a strong backup supply.

When gobies start to really grow strong around the 14 day time they eat like maniacs. So start preparing now. No I have worked with YWG but that is what I saw with some of the neon gobies. So this is just a tip/idea so you don't get stuck with 10-14 day old die-offs from hunger. Hunger die-offs are very frustrating.

[Kathy55g]

WOW, Congratulations, and good luck. You will have to rename this thread!
Kathy

[NicoleC]

Hmmm. I start a 3rd culture (aside from the co-culture) and for some reason it didn't take off. I cleaned it up last nght and debated started another, but didn't. Maybe I should have.

Just before lights out, I noticed that a few dozen were drifting to the bottom and would lay on the bottom then jerk up. Oceanarus mentioned similar behavior when they were starving at day 3, before they knew what to feed them. It seems to soon to starve, but I was sure it was signs of pending death. This morning there are definately fewer babies. Still an awful lot of them, but some dieoff.

[NicoleC]

Day 2: (And would you believe the bottom has plenty of bodies, too? I'm in awe at the number of babies mama has every month.)

[Morgman]

Cool picture. Its always so fascinating to see so many babies no matter how many times you see it. Good luck!!!

[NicoleC]

Well, I am going to lose my babies today, I think.

I've been faithfully doing 40% water changes on the rots each night because of ammonia issues. I strain the rots, and either add to the larval tank or back into the culture. My density in my cultures has been very poor lately for some reason, but I figured the water changes would help.

Last night, I noticed that my rot density in the baby tank had dropped off significantly. But it was okay. I did a 20% water change in the larval tank by sticking my rotifer cup in the tank and siphoning water from there.

So this morning I decided to get some more rots for the baby tank, and pulled the rotifer buckets and dumped them through my cup. When the mesh didn't back up, I grew concerned. I looked at samples of both water in a beaker and saw plenty of rots swimming around -- they are suddenly going through the mesh! (It's either 41 or 53, I forget). I pulled a fresh piece of mesh, but got the same results. I also strained the 2nd culture (the same), and I did get some to feed to the larval tank between the two. The rot density isn't what I would want it to be in the larval tank, but at least there's some.

-My rots have morphed into a smaller size.
-My cultures have been slim because I've been dumping 40% of them out daily for the past few days.
-The sudden decline in rotifer density in the larval tank may have as much to do with sucking 20% of the out last night as getting eaten.
-I have no way to collect the smaller rotifers for the babies.
-I have no way to get collection materials today.

I have a few ideas, none of which seem too good:
-Try a double layer of mesh
-Try feeding Hikari frozen L strain
-Try feeding pulverized flake soaked in Selcon
-Close my eyes, tap my heels and say, "There's nothing like bigger rotifers!"

It's very disappointing -- I didn't even expect these to hatch and now it feels like the bike-shaped package under the Christmas tree turned out to be socks instead.

I'll be placing an order today for a whole range of collection cup sizes, but I think this batch is gone.

[Luis A M]

Nicole,rots can´t pass a 53 mic.Check for holes or gaps in your collectors.
You mean a Melitta type plastic or metal filters,or paper coffee filters?I have a plastic filter,could check what´s the mesh size is.
You use green water in your larval tank?.If so,rot.s should be increasing,unless your babies are eating lots of them.Good luck!.

[NicoleC]

I have greenwater in the larval tank, but the temp is only 80, so rotifer reproduction rate is pretty low in there. And with this number of babies and the rate of growth between day one and day two, they are definately chowing down on a lot of them.

I checked the mesh -- although not under a microscope -- and could find no problems. I did get out a larger, fresh piece of mesh (not in a strainer) and carefully poured the water through it making sure it didn't go over the sides. Didn't work; I only got a few.

Of course, the mesh size could have been mixed up somewhere along the line and I don't have the size I think I do. But I got it from rsman, and I'm sure he knew what he had.

Well, I found a silkscreen place with a "scrap" (1 yard) of 355 in stock. I know silkscreen is not very consistant in sizing, but it's something else to try and the opening should be about 37um, which is pretty small so some variation should be okay. It's worth a try.

I realized the coffee filter is a silly question -- it probably depends on brand and manufacturing process. I was thinking unbleached paper filters would be safe, but who knows what the mesh size would be, even if it's consistent from batch to batch.

[NicoleC]

Well, I'll be... these guys are *scrappy!* Whatever force in this universe looks after little goby babies (aside from me, that is) is working overtime.

When I came home, rotifers were almost gone. I started digging through my tubs of fish stuff to look for ideas on how to harvest some rotifers, when I came across some unknown mesh I picked up at some point. It's small enough I feel like a yo-yo. I had to almost completely strain one culture, but #2 is looking denser and my new #3 is coming along nicely, so now that I am not dumping rotifers down the drainI think I will squeak by on food until I can start feeding something else, too.

The babies are substantially bigger than yesterday. They average about 4mm long, most of it tail. Some are bigger than others. You can see a clear ridge on many along the top from the head to the tail, which may be the makings of a spine.

I don't think they can take L strain yet, but it won't be long until they can. I'm starting an L culture on Sunday.

The fresh dead ones are big enough to see, and they appear to be deformed, usually with a humpback. I did see one dying, and he was kind of... twisted.

Fingers crossed. I bet the next two days will be critical.

Stay tuned for another episode of "As the Goby Turns."
Was that a tinge of yellow I saw?
Will the rotifers hold out?
Will the $$$ I spent today on aquaculture supplies save the day?
Will I have a stroke worrying about baby fish?

[NicoleC]

I didn't forget the baby pictures. Day 3:

[Kathy55g]

Amazing pictures!

[NicoleC]

The last one almost looks like a fish. I am hoping the dark spot in the gut means they are full.

On further observation, they are more like 3mm, I think. It's hard to tell how big they are.

[Kathy55g]

First one looks like a fish!

[NicoleC]

Day 4 is here. When I came in this morning, I only saw a few and I thought I might have had a mass die-off for some reason. No, they are just moving downward a bit, instead of congregating at the surface like they have been they are halfway down in the water column. The babies don't look much different, but their movements are less jerky. I guess they are getting their sea legs.

Rotifers are starting to reproduce a bit more in the larval tank; density is better than it was after I fed them last night. Maybe the rots are acclimating to the lower temp, or the ones I added last night were all pregnant. That's a bit of a relief.

Nothing exciting, no drama. Whew! My excitement for the day will be doing a water change.

[NicoleC]

Originally posted by Luis A M

But my pair (both yellow)after some time of being together,decided to split.

They now occupy opposite corners of the tank.They don´t fight though.

I keep them in a bare tank with pipes,you use sand substrate?you said you had pistol shrimps there.

I'm sorry, I just saw this post.

I originally had mine in a reef where they were happy and healthy. I moved them to get access to their eggs.

But my gobies did not respond well to a BB tank with flowerpots and PVC tubes. Adding a little sand helped enormously; they would not even breed without it. I don't think it was the sand as much as it was reducing environmental stress.

At that point they were surviving but clearly not thriving. They never left their chosen flowerpot, not even to eat -- I had to feed them right at the den. So I carefully added some very flat shelf rock pieces and propped them up on either end to make a long cave. The gobies were instantly relieved, and nest size started going up and they were acting much more relaxed.

I was offered a pair of pistol shrimps, and decided to see how they would get along. All 4 were instant friends, and I added a bit more sand and some rubble and shells for the pistols -- but not enough for them to build a den big enough to lay eggs in .

Well, as soon as the pistols build a snug den, the gobies starting acting like they used to. They still lay eggs in the flowerpot - -except once when they attached it to the shelf rock mentioned early, but that was because the flowerpot was getting too shallow. I replaced it with a taller pot and they went right back.

It doesn't look much like a breeding tank now, but it's what works for this pair.

[npaden]

Very cool! You might need to move some of this to a new post because it definetly doesn't look like you lost this nest!

It sounds bad, but a last ditch effort to make up for low rotifer levels is to thin out some of the babies so they all don't starve. Sounds like you have them back on track though.

Keep up the good work and good luck.

Nathan

[NicoleC]

I'm afraid if I start a new thread now I'll jinx it. I've gotten very lucky so far in dealing with setbacks. Well, stumbling through the setbacks. I have no clue what I'm doing. In the event I continue to squeek by, I should probably learn how to decapsulate brine shrimp eggs now, before it's a crisis. I have a jar of the hatching decapsulated eggs that Brine Shrimp Direct sells, but I've had it for a few months so it may not be viable anymore.

Rotifer cultures are back and pumping away. I am SO glad I calculated how many rotifers I thought I'd need... and then doubled it. I even froze some today as insurance against a rainy day. Next time, I triple my estimate!

[NicoleC]

Day 5:
They don't physically look much different, except a wee tad longer, but they are zooming around with astonishing speed and agility. Instead of jerk...jerk...jerk, they dart an inch or more, and seem more content to hold still when they aren't swimming. No longer are they pretty much constrained to a horizontal orientation, but are swimming in any direction. Appetite is definately WAY up and they are making serious inroads into the rotifers. They will need L-strain in about 2 days, maybe.

A lot of them are feeling comfortable hanging on the bottom for a bit to hunt among the detritus (I guess), then they swoop back up into the water column. I can't tell if they physically rest on the bottom, or if they are slightly hovering over it.

Top view:


Side view. Looks like maybe the start of some real fins, which may explain the improved swimming, and you can clearly see the clear ridge along the back (I mentioned 2 days ago) getting more pronounced.


Sorry the pics aren't larger, but focusing on these guys is tough! It doesn't help that they are moving so fast now.

[Kathy55g]

Those are awesome pictures, especially the top one. Very clear!

[NicoleC]

I can't hope to focus on one of these little guys when they are moving around, so I take a whole bunch of pictures and then look for one with a baby in focus!

[NicoleC]

Day 7:
The most obvious development is physical again. In profile view, you can see the development coming along. Top view looks pretty much the same.

[Kathy55g]

awesome....