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  #101  
Old 06/11/2007, 10:03 PM
graveyardworm graveyardworm is offline
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Elegance if you're still looking for more elegance I may have found one for you, just need to see if the owner would be willing to ship outside New England. PM me if interested.
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  #102  
Old 06/12/2007, 10:09 AM
DrDNA DrDNA is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by elegance coral
I think they are awsome! Where are you getting those things? I wish I could find some like that around here.
You can definitely see how much the older one has faded when compaired to the new one. I really think the first one is getting to much light under that 10K.
Its prognosis? With no clowns, proper lighting, and fed twice a week with small 1/4 inch pieces of shrimp or fish you may need to buy a bigger tank. No, but really, there is no reason those corals shouldn't be expanding twice that size in less than a years time. They are very healthy at this point, other than a little bleached, and you can fix that if you get it out of that bright light. Now its your job to improve on that. I think you can do it.
Actually those two elegance corals came from my LFS. The smaller one had been in their show tank for about a year but hadn't grown until I acquired it. They frequently get ones that are large and have the purple or pink tips.
Well I moved both of them to the other end of the tank last night where there is less water motion and a 20K 250w halide. They are still on the sand. So, maybe this evening I will snap a couple more pics for you. Glad to be part of your experiment
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  #103  
Old 06/12/2007, 10:56 AM
DrDNA DrDNA is offline
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Okay I have a question about the Australian elegance corals... are they a shallow water elegance? What makes them supposedly hardier?

Like with so many others, the last time I had an elegance (before now) was in the early 90's. It was in the bottom of a 55gal that was lit with four NO fluorescents and had lots of nutrients in tank. It was at my old college and it was alive at least three years, don't what happened to it after I left...
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  #104  
Old 06/12/2007, 02:47 PM
John Kelly John Kelly is offline
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Darrell, have you been fully photo-documenting every bit of your research? I found the thread that you recently started over on reefsanctuary. If you are not building up a good base of visual proof from multiple examples, to show a progression of both the decline and reversal of the problem, it is going to be difficult to convince people that damaging light is the primary cause for the widespread demise of Elegance corals.

On your thick/thin tissue observation:
One reason the tissue may appear more "thin" in certain Elegance is that the tissue can be more saturated with zooxanthellae and the coral would be extending the tentacles more in an effort to spread out the zooxanthellae for capturing light. The spreading out would cause the tissue to appear more transparent and "thin". Tissue that appears more "thick" could be more saturated with fluorescent proteins that reflect light and cause the tissue to appear more opaque, which also makes the tissue appear more "thick". This would be more likely to occur in Elegance that receives more light and would not be extending quite as much, which would also condense the proteins and make the tissue look even more opaque.

Polyps of the same coral: Some of the tissue looks thin and transparent (blue arrows) and some of the tissue looks thick and opaque (center polyp).
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  #105  
Old 06/13/2007, 07:47 AM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrDNA
Okay I have a question about the Australian elegance corals... are they a shallow water elegance? What makes them supposedly hardier?

Like with so many others, the last time I had an elegance (before now) was in the early 90's. It was in the bottom of a 55gal that was lit with four NO fluorescents and had lots of nutrients in tank. It was at my old college and it was alive at least three years, don't what happened to it after I left...
I don't have an Elegance from Australia so I can't say that they are hardier. It would make sense that they have no need to dive to great depths to collect them there. I would assume these corals are coming from shallower water and therefore would have a much easier time adjusting to our lights.
When you say this coral was in a tank with high nutrients, what nutrients are you referring to?
  #106  
Old 06/13/2007, 08:49 AM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Kelly
Darrell, have you been fully photo-documenting every bit of your research? I found the thread that you recently started over on reefsanctuary. If you are not building up a good base of visual proof from multiple examples, to show a progression of both the decline and reversal of the problem, it is going to be difficult to convince people that damaging light is the primary cause for the widespread demise of Elegance corals.

On your thick/thin tissue observation:
One reason the tissue may appear more "thin" in certain Elegance is that the tissue can be more saturated with zooxanthellae and the coral would be extending the tentacles more in an effort to spread out the zooxanthellae for capturing light. The spreading out would cause the tissue to appear more transparent and "thin". Tissue that appears more "thick" could be more saturated with fluorescent proteins that reflect light and cause the tissue to appear more opaque, which also makes the tissue appear more "thick". This would be more likely to occur in Elegance that receives more light and would not be extending quite as much, which would also condense the proteins and make the tissue look even more opaque.

Polyps of the same coral: Some of the tissue looks thin and transparent (blue arrows) and some of the tissue looks thick and opaque (center polyp).
Yes, I have more photos in my camera. For some reason I am unable to download the pics to my PC. I have a friend that is able to download them to his PC. He burns the pics to a cd, then I download them from the cd to my pc. This process has delayed me posting updated pics. This is also why some of the pics I have posted are from my phone. I can e-mail these pics to my pc. The quality stinks though.
In a different thread here on RC I made the mistake of telling people what I was doing. After explaining to them that I didn't want to post anything until I was sure what was going on, they talked me into posting this thread. As I explained in my original post, I was posting this prematurely. I took a wild guess at the skin thickness thing. I now wish I had never done that. The point I was trying to make was that these corals after being exposed to bright light, or a photo period that is to long, are damaged much easier than they should be. I now believe it has more to do with the damage caused by the excess oxygen build up in the corals tissues than anything else. This was my main concern in the begining. Through out this experiment I have come up with many theories only to prove myself wrong. I did not want to post something only to later find out that it was incorrect. This only damages the credibility of all the work I have done. Even if the reason these corals are damaged so easy is irrelevant to someone trying to keep one of these corals alive. All someone needs to know is that they are damaged easy. With this knowledge we can keep from placing them in with mobile animals that can cause them harm.
I have spent far more money than I can afford, and way to much of my time on this project to argue with people about what I have learned, like in the thread you talked about. I believe I can help people keep these corals alive. There are those that are interested in how I keep my corals alive. There is a thread on "Thereeftank" where I am talking about this and it is going very well so far. I will not be going back to "Reefsanctuary". I went back and deleted a great deal of what I posted on that sight.
  #107  
Old 06/13/2007, 08:51 AM
DrDNA DrDNA is offline
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As for nutrients, I recall it still having some nitrates and phosphates, definitely enough to make hair algae grow. This was about ten years ago, I don't recall what the parameters were, but I seem to think we'd be happy if nitrates were under 10ppm. Also, there was a lot less flow too than your modern day SPS tanks.
When people say that currently most elegance corals are collected from deeper waters, what exactly do you mean? Are they coming from 20 feet, 50 feet, etc? From what I understood in the past, most elegance corals were found in seagrass beds or laying on soft sediments. Seagrass itself doesn't grow in deep water since it is an angiosperm and supposedly needs bright light, at least fromwhat I understand (could be wrong of course)...
Just curious!

Jeff
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  #108  
Old 06/13/2007, 04:17 PM
poopsko24 poopsko24 is offline
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[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

Not sure if its an aussie or not......not youre traditional cone shaped, this one has a meandering wall shape. Had about 2 1/2 yrs.
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  #109  
Old 06/13/2007, 04:23 PM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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Wow! That's incredible!
  #110  
Old 06/13/2007, 05:00 PM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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I messed up yesturday. I came home and one of my corals were swollen and the tentacles were withdrawn. I panicked. This coral has been under the same lights for months and hasn't done this. I have been telling everyone this is due to light exposure and here this coral is doing it when he has had months to adjust to the lights he is under. I didn't know what else to do so I started changing water. After putting the last 5gl back into the tank I looked up and most of the corals were now doing the same thing. I was shocked. At first I didn't know what to think. It was very hot here in Florida yesterday. I had turned the thermostat in the house up before going to work. It was worm in the house when I got home and checked the tank. My RO is outside. I usually bring the water in the house a day or so before putting it in the tank. I was in a hurry this time so I just mixed it up and put it in the tank. I knew the water was worm but I assumed it wouldn't change the temp in the tank to much. Then I checked the temp. It was about 88. I opened the cabinet and pointed fans at the tank and sump. I started bagging up items from the freezer and placing them in the sump. My wife still doesn't know I put that frozen chicken in my tank. After thinking about this for a while it started making sense to me. I was right about the light causing this problem. It seems to be the excess oxygen produced by the algae that causes these symptoms. The elevated temp just magnified this problem. I feel much better about my position on this subject now, but I have knocked my corals back a few weeks if not months in the process.
John Kelly, have you noticed a connection between temp and your corals bleaching?
  #111  
Old 06/13/2007, 05:34 PM
redFishblue redFishblue is offline
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Elegance,
Can you elaborate what you mean by excess oxygen produced by algae that caused these problems? I had been following that it was too high par that an elegance was not acclimated to and thus burning it that was the problem.

poopsko24
I've seen indonesian elegance with the same meandering skeleton.
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  #112  
Old 06/13/2007, 06:13 PM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by redFishblue
Elegance,
Can you elaborate what you mean by excess oxygen produced by algae that caused these problems? I had been following that it was too high par that an elegance was not acclimated to and thus burning it that was the problem.

poopsko24
I've seen indonesian elegance with the same meandering skeleton.
When the algae inside the coral is exposed to light they begin to produce O2 durring photosynthesis. The coral can use this O2 and produce CO2 for the algae. This relationship works great under normal circumstances. If the coral is moved to an environment with much more light the algae will begin to produce more O2 than the coral can use. This O2 can build up in the corals tissues causing damage to the cells in the coral. This is why corals bleach. It's not simply the light that causes it, but the overload of O2 in its system that is caused by the light. When I say a coral has been burnt, this is what I'm referrimg to. More O2 can be dissolved in water at higher temps. This is why all this becomes much more of a problem when the temp rises.

Maybe John Kelly can help me out here. He is much better at explaining these things than I am.
  #113  
Old 06/27/2007, 03:08 AM
blink* blink* is offline
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Doesn't oxygen saturation levels decrease with higher temps?
  #114  
Old 06/30/2007, 04:36 PM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by blink*
Doesn't oxygen saturation levels decrease with higher temps?
You are very correct. I am sorry for my misrepresentation of the facts. I read your post shortly after you posted it. I have been reading and studying everything I can get my hands on since then. I have posted questions here on the advanced forum, the chemistry forum, and on other sights. I have searched Google and read until I can't see anymore. It turns out that there has been a great deal of research into this subject since the El nino event that caused wide spread coral bleaching. The subject is much more complicated than the O2 poisoning I learned about years ago. The bottom line as far as we are concerned is still the same. Coral tissue can be badly damaged from exposure to bright lights and/or high temps. This is what the Elegance corals are going through. I am working on an updated theory and a video to show the effects of bright light on these corals.
  #115  
Old 06/30/2007, 06:11 PM
John Kelly John Kelly is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by elegance coral
Maybe John Kelly can help me out here. He is much better at explaining these things than I am.
Sorry I haven't responded yet.

The problem has to do with the over-excitation of the zooxanthellae within the coral tissue from being placed under too high intensity of light (too much PAR/UVR). The photosynthetic cells within zooxanthellae produces oxygen. The oxygen absorbs the high light energy and is converted into forms of oxygen that is toxic or reactive to the cell walls and coral tissue. The cells produce anti-oxidants to counteract the reactive oxygen, but when there is a large amount of reactive oxygen produced quick, it can instantly cause internal damage to the coral. This is why it is always important to properly acclimate corals to the lights. Oxidative stress damage is one of the major problems to overcome when keeping certain species of Goniopora. It looks like it may be one of the major problems with certain Elegance too. I would also guess that it often causes tip burn in certain sps corals.
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  #116  
Old 07/13/2007, 12:57 PM
Serioussnaps Serioussnaps is offline
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I think we all know this by now...but this goes to your theory. An article where Borneman discusses briefly the collection areas for Cataphyllia in Indonesia. Very low light, sand is matted with cyano....low light, high nutrient. He even stated that he would be suprised that corals heavily dependent on zooxanthellae would be able to survive in this area....but there are tons of elegances collected in this area and the like.

For your reading:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002...earchterm=None
  #117  
Old 07/13/2007, 01:12 PM
Serioussnaps Serioussnaps is offline
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Does this mean anything to you elegance coral?

"A parasitic gall crab has recently been found beneath the tissue of almost all Catalaphyllia examined with this condition (Shimek pers comm, www.rshimek.com)."
  #118  
Old 07/13/2007, 03:47 PM
DrDNA DrDNA is offline
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elegance coral-

have another question for you. I had picked up a small elegance coral at the LFS that was mostly brown, i.e. very little GFP. I put it under a mix of the 10K and 14K and it shrunk up and wouldn't expand after a couple days. I moved it to the back under indirect 14K light and it is opening some. It does produce quite a bit of slime overnight and I blow it off in the AM. Basically its oral disc will open after the lights have been on for a couple hours and tentacles are short little "nubs". It sounds a lot like the ones you have had and are "rehabbing". It also did not do the routine where it swells up like a ballon.
My question is... is this always lethal, or do they eventually recover? I have not seen any tissue recession from the skeleton and have not seen any bleaching. it just won't open and expand its tentacles. It did produce some of the "white spiderweb" stuff for a few days, but has ceased doing that. It has been this way for about three weeks and isn't getting any worse. Moving it to a lower lighting has helped some...
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  #119  
Old 07/13/2007, 05:02 PM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Serioussnaps
I think we all know this by now...but this goes to your theory. An article where Borneman discusses briefly the collection areas for Cataphyllia in Indonesia. Very low light, sand is matted with cyano....low light, high nutrient. He even stated that he would be suprised that corals heavily dependent on zooxanthellae would be able to survive in this area....but there are tons of elegances collected in this area and the like.

For your reading:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002...earchterm=None
Thanks again John Kelly. Your help is proving to be very valuable. I can't thank you enough.

Serioussnaps, thanks for the link. I have seen the article and I have another thread in the "Responsible Reefkeeping" forum where someone else linked the same article. I have one small problem with this article. He shows two pics of Elegance corals swelling up with their tentacles withdrawn. He claims that they are caused by two different situations. I see no evidence to back up such a claim. This is merely an assumption, and an incorrect one at that. As far as the depth is concerned I have to believe him. I would assume that if he's scuba diving he knows his approximate depth. He states that these corals are coming from as much as 114 feet deep. This is incredibly deep for a coral. I don't think it is even arguable that these corals would have issues acclimating to bright MH lighting. It is dark at 114 ft. I agree with Borenman again, that it is amazing they could even survive at such depths. The high nutrients and/or the great depth could explain the corals stunted growth that he noted.
  #120  
Old 07/13/2007, 05:16 PM
gsellers1245 gsellers1245 is offline
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just a suggestion keep some full frozen water bottles for the next time that happens that way you can drop them in your sump and it'll cool the temp down ok.
Quote:
Originally posted by elegance coral
I messed up yesturday. I came home and one of my corals were swollen and the tentacles were withdrawn. I panicked. This coral has been under the same lights for months and hasn't done this. I have been telling everyone this is due to light exposure and here this coral is doing it when he has had months to adjust to the lights he is under. I didn't know what else to do so I started changing water. After putting the last 5gl back into the tank I looked up and most of the corals were now doing the same thing. I was shocked. At first I didn't know what to think. It was very hot here in Florida yesterday. I had turned the thermostat in the house up before going to work. It was worm in the house when I got home and checked the tank. My RO is outside. I usually bring the water in the house a day or so before putting it in the tank. I was in a hurry this time so I just mixed it up and put it in the tank. I knew the water was worm but I assumed it wouldn't change the temp in the tank to much. Then I checked the temp. It was about 88. I opened the cabinet and pointed fans at the tank and sump. I started bagging up items from the freezer and placing them in the sump. My wife still doesn't know I put that frozen chicken in my tank. After thinking about this for a while it started making sense to me. I was right about the light causing this problem. It seems to be the excess oxygen produced by the algae that causes these symptoms. The elevated temp just magnified this problem. I feel much better about my position on this subject now, but I have knocked my corals back a few weeks if not months in the process.
John Kelly, have you noticed a connection between temp and your corals bleaching?
  #121  
Old 07/13/2007, 07:03 PM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Serioussnaps
Does this mean anything to you elegance coral?

"A parasitic gall crab has recently been found beneath the tissue of almost all Catalaphyllia examined with this condition (Shimek pers comm, www.rshimek.com)."
Yes it does. I couldn't open the link, but I remember reading something about this. I just pulled a gall crab out of one of my Elegance corals a few days ago. Nasty looking things. However I don't believe they are the cause of the problems we are having. In Shimek's case I believe his research system, holding tanks, or the area where they were collected must have been contaminated with these crabs. They get plenty big enough to see with the naked eye. I would find it hard to believe that all the people that have studied this problem have missed something as large and nasty as this crab. I have lost more Elegance corals in this study than I would like to admit. This is the first gall crab I have found in any of my corals, even after examining their dead skeletons. This is a problem that seems to be getting worse. Not just with Elegance corals though. I just hope they can not reproduce in captivity. The one I found and all the pics I have see (not that I have seen a ton) all had eggs in them.
  #122  
Old 07/13/2007, 07:47 PM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrDNA
elegance coral-

have another question for you. I had picked up a small elegance coral at the LFS that was mostly brown, i.e. very little GFP. I put it under a mix of the 10K and 14K and it shrunk up and wouldn't expand after a couple days. I moved it to the back under indirect 14K light and it is opening some. It does produce quite a bit of slime overnight and I blow it off in the AM. Basically its oral disc will open after the lights have been on for a couple hours and tentacles are short little "nubs". It sounds a lot like the ones you have had and are "rehabbing". It also did not do the routine where it swells up like a balloon.
My question is... is this always lethal, or do they eventually recover? I have not seen any tissue recession from the skeleton and have not seen any bleaching. it just won't open and expand its tentacles. It did produce some of the "white spiderweb" stuff for a few days, but has ceased doing that. It has been this way for about three weeks and isn't getting any worse. Moving it to a lower lighting has helped some...
When you say that the oral disk will open up what do you mean? It's very easy to confuse the beginnings of swelling with normal expansion. I have done it many times. If the lights are slightly to intense for the coral after a few hours of exposure they will begin to swell. The first stages of this can be seen in the area between the mouths and tentacles. This area should be flat or almost straight. If this area arches or balloons up between the mouths and tentacles it is in the beginning stages of swelling. The lights will need to be reduced in strength or period. The lights may go off before the coral reaches the full swollen posture you see in the pics. However every day that the coral goes through this it is being damaged. Over time its health will deteriorate and the coral will surcome to an infection and die.
This is by no means always fatal. I have seen them come back when even I didn't think they would survive, and I'm an optimist. These are some tough corals. It is amazing the amount of damage they can sustain and somehow pull through.
With that said, they can not be permitted to swell up at all. Every time they do they sustain more damage. Eventually even the toughest coral will lose the fight. It sounds like you may have made it through the toughest part. When they are discharging filaments and producing slime at night, they are in very bad shape. You did the right thing by removing this slime every morning. (have you been reading my posts?) The road to recovery is very long. If you can keep the coral from swelling up it can make it. It will not feed for some time, however. I am experimenting with dosing vitamins and amino acids to speed up this process. I have no idea if this will work or not, but I figured it wouldn't hurt. Only time will tell.
  #123  
Old 07/13/2007, 07:53 PM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by gsellers1245
just a suggestion keep some full frozen water bottles for the next time that happens that way you can drop them in your sump and it'll cool the temp down ok.
Thanks for the advice. I see your from Florida. Has it been freakin hot or what? I have 10 water bottles. I keep 5 in the freezer and 5 in my sump. I switch them out twice a day to keep the temp below 80. That's with the AC going, the cabinet open and fans blowing. I need a chiller.
  #124  
Old 07/13/2007, 08:17 PM
gsellers1245 gsellers1245 is offline
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yeah im in brandon, which is a bit south east of tampa. We hit 96 tuesday and wednesday. At the fish farm we hit 97 inside where the tanks are and humidity was off the charts. If i run across any chillers il let ya know
BTW both elegance are doing great thanks again for the help man ill keep the thread updated
  #125  
Old 07/13/2007, 09:03 PM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by gsellers1245
yeah im in brandon, which is a bit south east of tampa. We hit 96 tuesday and wednesday. At the fish farm we hit 97 inside where the tanks are and humidity was off the charts. If i run across any chillers il let ya know
BTW both elegance are doing great thanks again for the help man ill keep the thread updated
Thanks. It looks like you been slackin though. It has been a while since any updates. and your thread is on page 3 . Just kiddin. I ran into a guy at a new LFS in the area and he started talking to me about your thread. I thought that was cool. It's amazing how many people read these things.
 

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