The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[Insane Reefer]

Cool.
And did the older rock sit in water the whole time, or when you "finished" the kure did you let it sit dry, Rick?

[medic29]

It mainly sat in water with the exception of a couple of weeks that it sat out on a table in the sun. Then I put it back in the water to see what the pH was 2 weeks ago.

[Insane Reefer]

Well that blew my idea, lol.

Sorry if it sounded like I was bombarding you with questions, but often the answer can be found in the details...

Another question
I see you live in IL. The mid-west had a particularly cold winter. Did these rocks sit in temps of lower than 50°F during this winter?
Low temps can affect regular portlands cure, through I am not sure how that might apply here, if that were the case.

[medic29]

Yep, they sat outside in a container of water all winter.

[Insane Reefer]

Hmmm.
If one was lower than the other, I'd question the sand, but two different sands equaled almost the same results.
My genetics friend is over, and I posed this to him.
He suggested something that sounds far-fetched, but a google search quickly showed that it has some merit.

This is the idea. Most of us in the mid-west sit on limestone aquifers, that our local water companies tap for use. In some area's, the limestone is 'infested' (for lack of a better term) by types of bacteria that feed on something in the stone, there-by breaking it down. These bacteria often leave behind a sulfur-like smell. Some people may be familiar with a sulfur smell and orange stains from their local water - this can be from either rust in the water or these bacteria.

Far-fetched as it sounds, bacteria like these do eat cement - it might be possible that your local water is contaminated with one of these types of bacteria. Your friend at the university might be able to test the local water you use, and the limestone you are using as well as the rocks themselves, or at least the solution they have been sitting in. See if there are a lot of bacteria present, and if so, try to identify it.

This is one article I found about cement eating bacteria:
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/70/10/6031.pdf

[Yinepu]

Hey Insane... what was the final assessment on adding vinegar to the kure water?... did it actually help lower the ph of the rock?.. or was it just a temp fix that didn't make any difference in the long run?..

[BOKER420]

IR,
I'm not sure if my pH is stable, but after a double 2 hr bake at 425. Then 3 overnight heated soaks to get the salt out. And now the last batch of heated water was left for 3 days and so far the pH reads 7.

[Insane Reefer]

Yin, we are still trying to determine that, lol.
EAJ hasn't checked in for the two week test yet.
Medic still has really high (11+) pH, but he has that problem with older rock he made too, so I'm wondering if we aren't dealing with some odd issue with his materials or local water or something.
Boker just checked in but it will be another week and a half or so before the two week test for his rock. Right Boker?
And I have completed my last cycle of tests. My tests at two weeks are fairly consistent. Most rock after 2 weeks seems to be holding stable (or with only a slight tendency to rise a tiny bit) for the two week test period. The average range I've been hitting has been 9. I've had 2 pieces in the 8 range, and I have had 6 pieces that were in the 10 range. I have done a total of 21 pieces of rock during these last few weeks (not counting failed, low heat bakes) - the last test pieces got taken out this weekend.
I did start another batch made with CO2 water, but that is yet to start testing.

To answer your question Yin, I think that if the rock is done hydrating, or close to it, the acid will clean the rock out quicker than water alone will. It might be something to try with air kured rocks - 3 days in weak vinegar after a full 28 day cure might just do the trick.
But if your rock hasn't finished the hydration phase or come close, I think it would be sort of pointless.

I'm going to try a few batches of boiled rock next - see if that makes any difference and trying to think of other things to try as well.

[medic29]

IR - I had a few thoughts....1) In reference to the bacteria - first the oven baking should have killed the bacteria and/or the multiple boiling sessions; I would think either or both of these would have taken care of killing any protein based bacteria unless it was some sort of encapsulated bacteria, but then it would have to come out of the encapsulated protection to start breaking down the cement. 2) Would there be any use of re-baking these rocks at 400-450 degrees? I'm wondering if maybe it has not finished with the bonding you have discussed in the past and maybe it just didn't bake long enough. I don't know what is up with my original batch I made several months ago. I guess it could possibly be the cement I am using, but this high pH is driving me nuts (thus the reason I originally asked about using diluted muratic acid to lower the pH of the soaking water).

Any ideas...

[obarrera]

Is there a way to make some rock like this?


I think I read somewhere earlier in this thread that it's called ceramic rock, how do they do this rocks, I really like the shapes, looks natural.

[Azazael13]

Layers, lots and lots and than some more.

[Joshsmit56001]

I have had my rock siting in water for like 2 months now. I have tried to change water at least once a week. When I took out all the rock tonight there was a white residue on a lot of the rock. Is this normal and do I need to scrub this off or will it be ok putting it into an established tank?

Thanks,
Josh

[Insane Reefer]

Rick, if at any point after the boil, if you used tap water, you could have re-contaminated the rock. Bacteria are hardy little critters, and if this were what is going on with your rock, well, at least you know bacteria will grow in it, lol.

Not to make light of your situation or anything, but I am sort of stumped.
Does anyone else agree that his 6 month old, water kured rock should be lower than 11+?
Since both batches are showing the same pH issue, it has to be a common denominator. The cold thing doesn't fit for both batches, and neither does the sand. Salt would have nothing to do with it. That leaves the cement and the water.
Maybe you could call your local water supply and ask about bacteria types that might populate your locale.
Possibly finding out about the cement in detail would shed some light.

Other then that, I don't know.
Anyone?

[Insane Reefer]

Welcome Joshsmit
Is the white stuff on the wet rock or the dry? If on the wet rock, it could be a number of things, but just give the rock a light scrub and it should be alright, if it tests ok on pH that is.
If it showed up after the rock dried, it is carbonate most likely - just give them a quick rinse before you use them.
Got any pictures?

[medic29]

The bacteria issue still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If it is in the tap water, would the water be safe to drink? Plus, I have a concrete company about 1/2 mile from my house and there are at least a half dozen other that operate within 5 miles. I would think if there was something in the water that eats or destroys cement, we would know about it. Even some people I know that are masons haven't said anything and just use water from a hose. I'm wondering if it has something to do with the composition of the cement.

[goldmaniac]

OK, last week I found the white portland cement I've been searching for high and low, so I want to make new batches of MMLR tonight or tomorrow night.

Is there any process that has been shown to improve Curing and Kuring, or is everything still in test phase?

I plan to keep the pieces in my (quite warm) garage for a month before doing any Kuring. I may or may not give it a 24 hour soak 7 days in to remove salt, depending on everyone's suggestions.

thanks,

G.

[Insane Reefer]

Originally posted by medic29
The bacteria issue still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If it is in the tap water, would the water be safe to drink?

I'm wondering if it has something to do with the composition of the cement.

I lived in a little town called Rocheport that had this nasty bacteria. I wouldn't drink the water, but the old folks all did and seemed alright. Then a few years ago they had to drill a new well, and hit the bacteria in the new well too. People were ****ed off. Typically it can be a problem where water isn't being treated prior to use, as in well water or tapped aquifer. It probably isn't your problem, but might be someones problem at some point.

I agree that it probably is the cement, but the bacteria is an outside possibility.

[Insane Reefer]

Originally posted by goldmaniac

Is there any process that has been shown to improve Curing and Kuring, or is everything still in test phase?

Everything is still in testing, though heat does seem to be a great help. I'm planning a new series of tests based on boiling. Slightly older rock - 72 hours old, boiled until the salt is released.

Baking followed by a weak 3 day vinegar bath does seem to bring the pH down to the 9 range, so if you are in a hurry, it is something to consider - a last bit of kuring in water for a week or so should bring it down to the 8 range.

You would be a more then welcome lab monkey, Goldman

If you want to add your data to the collective, just email me and I will set you up with the test form.

[Joshsmit56001]

I need to add the pics to my gallery and then I will post them in here. Anyone know of a good program to shrink picture file sizes?

[sunkool]

use photobucket.com its free and you don't have to shrink them.

[sunkool]

Originally posted by obarrera
Is there a way to make some rock like this?


I think I read somewhere earlier in this thread that it's called ceramic rock, how do they do this rocks, I really like the shapes, looks natural.

I could be wrong but it looks like this was built around a pvc pipe if you look to the left half of the pic. There is also a yellow spot where a cap would be.

[impur]

Are you guys finding the pulverized limestone in the garden section or building section?

[Travis L. Stevens]

Holy crap, I've been busy. It looks like you all have, too. I left off on page 16, and now there are 27 pages! I don't know if I can read ~275 replies in a decent amount of time. Will someone care to PM me any updates and/or breakthroughs?

[obarrera]

Originally posted by sunkool
I could be wrong but it looks like this was built around a pvc pipe if you look to the left half of the pic. There is also a yellow spot where a cap would be.

Yeah, but what do they use to make it?
It's not some kind of cement is it?

[Travis L. Stevens]

You can make a PVC internal structure inside of a sand mold, fill in with cement, and use layers in order to make something like that.