Nitrite Question

lennyd19 · #1 04/06/2005, 08:10 PM

I was wondering if any one had any insight on nitrites. my tank is reading at .50 ppm. Some books say it should not exceed .25 MG/L and others say not to worry about it in salt water because it does not has as big of an effect as it does in freshwater, that is coming from an artical here on reef central. Any help would be good. Also If I have to buff my water for PH can I buff My topoff water? Thank!

buzzer · #2 04/07/2005, 03:04 PM

Your Nitrites should be undetectable.
You should have the correct amount of correct bacteria in your filters to get rid of any nitrites which will be then converted to less toxic nitrates.
If you are showing any Nitrites you must have too much fish load for your filters.
To reduce Nitrite add more filters to your tank or reduce the fish load.

sulp · #3 04/07/2005, 03:08 PM

You are referring to niTRATES not niTRITES. Any sign of Nitrite will cause you problems. How long has the tank been up? Are you still cycling?

Randy Holmes-Farley · #4 04/07/2005, 03:55 PM

I do not believe that nitrite is any concern in a reef aquarium at levels below about 10 ppm. It is just not toxic to most marine organisms, IMO. Those that worry most are extrapolating from fresh water where it is much more toxic.

I've never measured nitrite, and don't think anyone else with a marine system should bother either (unless you just like to monitor chemicals

).

sulp · #5 04/07/2005, 04:09 PM

Randy - Really? I thought Nitrite was toxic at any level.

Randy Holmes-Farley · #6 04/07/2005, 04:38 PM

Fish can withstand more than 100 ppm nitrite. Stephen Spotte has a discussion of nitrite toxicity in "Captive Seawater Fishes".

I've never seen a nitrite test on inverts. It is a little tricky to do such tests as a little conversion of nitrite into ammonia will confound the results as ammonia can be toxic at levels below 1 ppm.

buzzer · #7 04/08/2005, 01:38 PM

Randy, You are obviously talking about nitrate which yes fish can withstand at the levels you state but will certainly not thrive, Nitrite on the other hand is toxic to the fish and over a short time would kill them.

The Grim Reefer · #8 04/08/2005, 02:03 PM

Oooh

Arguing chemistry with a guy who has letters after his name. This could be good

NeilPearson · #9 04/08/2005, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by buzzer
Randy, You are obviously talking about nitrate which yes fish can withstand at the levels you state but will certainly not thrive, Nitrite on the other hand is toxic to the fish and over a short time would kill them.

Nope... Randy is correct. Nitrite toxicity has a lot to do with pH. At freshwater pH levels, it is quite toxic. At saltwater pH levels... not so much. At least that is my understanding of why. Even if that reasoning is incorrect, I do know that nitrites are not a big deal in saltwater.

NeilPearson · #10 04/08/2005, 02:49 PM

Telling Randy he's wrong about chemistry... lol

His occupation is listed as a chemist! He's the chemistry moderator here with 29000+ posts. He even has a molecule picture thingy.

The Grim Reefer · #11 04/08/2005, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NeilPearson
Telling Randy he's wrong about chemistry... lol

His occupation is listed as a chemist! He's the chemistry moderator here with 29000+ posts. He even has a molecule picture thingy.

Is it that molecule picture thingy that makes him soooo darn smart?

NeilPearson · #12 04/08/2005, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Grim Reefer
Is it that molecule picture thingy that makes him soooo darn smart?

I think it has a lot to do with it.

nynick · #13 04/08/2005, 03:50 PM

I'd still be a bit nervous about a high Nitrite reading. Maybe not because it is all that toxic but why is it high? I have never had a Nitrite reading in any tank, salt or fresh, and it isn't the hardest thing to convert it to nitrates. My thought is that it might be sign of something else being a bit off. ...and BTW I am not refering to your 0.5 reading Lenny, that might just be the test messing a little with your head.

Randy Holmes-Farley · #14 04/08/2005, 03:54 PM

I'm just following the detailed discussion about lack of nitrite toxicity in Spotte's excellent book. It is a well worthwhile book to read for many issues, including nitrite.

I forget the actual values, but the LD50 values (where half the fish die) is hundreds of ppm nitrite for some seawater fish.

Reefbummer · #15 04/08/2005, 03:57 PM

Thks Lenny and Randy for the eye-opener.

Randy Holmes-Farley · #16 04/08/2005, 04:26 PM

You're welcome.

From Spotte's book:

Red Drum (a seawater fish) had no decrease in growth rate in 329 ppm nitrite ion (100 ppm nitrite-N) when tested in full strength seawater, but tox does show up in fresh water (1.4ppt) in the same species.

In seabass, the 96-hour LC50 was 722 ppm nitrite ion (half died in 96 hours at 722 ppm nitrite (220 ppm nitrite-N).

In European eels, the value rises to 1,642 ppm nitrite ion!

FWIW, he states that values above 3 ppm nitrite are unusual in seawater aquaria.

Consequently, I don't worry about it or recommend that folks even measure it.

The Grim Reefer · #17 04/08/2005, 05:34 PM

But if you are measuring nitrites something is obviously out of balance in the biological filtration, I think, maybe, sometimes, sort of, perhaps?

Randy Holmes-Farley · #18 04/08/2005, 05:39 PM

Yes, that is true. Whether it is important or not is another matter.

If it indicates that there might also be some ammonia, that is a significant concern.

aquababy · #19 04/08/2005, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
You're welcome.

From Spotte's book:

Red Drum (a seawater fish) had no decrease in growth rate in 329 ppm nitrite ion (100 ppm nitrite-N) when tested in full strength seawater, but tox does show up in fresh water (1.4ppt) in the same species.

In seabass, the 96-hour LC50 was 722 ppm nitrite ion (half died in 96 hours at 722 ppm nitrite (220 ppm nitrite-N).

In European eels, the value rises to 1,642 ppm nitrite ion!

Randy,
I noticed this discussion and was suprised to see that n-i-t-r-i-t-e-s are not the killers that I thought they were and perhaps many others ionvolved in the care and handling of marine fish. I was wondering, as I do not have Spottes book, if other species were involved and mentioned in his experiment - specifically Tangs and Butterfly Fish amongst a few others? Those fish Spotte mentions above usually can put up with quite a mess where others are more sensitive. Some can even be used to break in new marine tank set ups and survie the NH4....N cycle as do damsels.

Randy Holmes-Farley · #20 04/08/2005, 07:57 PM

No, he mentions no other specific species, but does note that "Seawater fishes are notably resistant to nitrite toxicity".

aquababy · #21 04/08/2005, 09:28 PM

As you and others pointed out earlier the fact that you have nitrites means that you had or still have ammonia. Under natural conditions you cannot have nitrites without starting with ammonia. It would therefore be very difficult to claim that a certain fish did poorly because of nitrites alone as had been my opinion - especially if the water is showing only nitrites. I wish Spotte had used other species in his test and wonder how he achieved the nitrite levels he reported although those fish on his list can put up with more ammonia than the more sensitive species. Perhaps I will get the opportunity to test it for myself with delicate species subjecting them to Nitrites alone. Do you know of any chemical that would add nitrites to a sytem in contolled amounts without being harmful in any other way?

Randy Holmes-Farley · #22 04/09/2005, 07:47 AM

Sodium nitrite is a fine chemical to add, although if you are going to push high levels of nitrite, you'd need to know that it didn't contain significant quantities of ammonia, and that none formed in the test.

This database is a nice summary of tox tests for many chemcials. Here is the listing for sodium nitrite (skip down to the aquatic toxicity section):

http://preview.pesticideinfo.org/Det...Rec_Id=PC34406

The Grim Reefer · #23 04/09/2005, 10:45 AM

I gotta get me one of those molecule picture thingies

I think I will stick to lights, you chemistry guys scare me,

Ciali · #24 04/09/2005, 10:57 AM

Randy what kind of molecule is that? It has five bonds, but wouldn't it commonly only need three to become a noble gas. I was thinking it was nitrogen with 5 hydrogen atoms, but what does that form. Or is it just a picture? I'm taking chemisty now in school, so i'm just interested.

Thanks,
Ciali

buzzer · #25 04/09/2005, 12:05 PM

Randy
With your obvious high knowledge of chemistry I am impressed that you havent been sarcastic in any way to any of the posts including my earlier one.
I am very surprised to hear about what you say about nitrite but I bow to your greater knowledge , I would agree with other posts though and Im sure you have no argument with that obviously a high nitrite reading would mean something is not right at all with the tank.
Once again thanks for not jumping down anyones throat for being less knowledgable as this encourages newcomers to join in the debates on this forum.