what happened? is this the hardest part of this hobby?

reg828 · #1 01/31/2006, 02:54 AM

today, i took out all my fish because my 75 gallon system has ich. it started with the flame angel, and infected my foxface. so i took all fish out, about 8 fish total. and moved them to my 55 gallon used tank as a qt tank. i have a power filter there that has been running in the 10 gallon qt tank for a week. i buy my water at grocery store glacier machine. but this time, i decided to use tap water. i added conditioner, to remove chlorine and heavy metals and added ph buffer. i put one big rock from my 75 gallon system too. then, i added all the fish. they, were seem doing fine and eating well. today i have to go to get some more salt and when i got back my foxface was dead and my flame angel and sailfin tang are breathing heavily. i check water parameters. they all seem fine, i dont know what happened. is this the hardest part of this hobby? it seems like we do more harm than good. and my question, is it because the tank is cycling, it doesnt have beneficial bacteria yet? so if that the case then, is qt tank can be deadly as well. or do we have to make lots of water changes every single day? i have been working on my fish tank last night and i didnt have any sleep. this might be the hardest part of this hobby. its time consuming. when can i have a peace and just no sick fish. sorry for the long message. i love this hobby but sometimes it takes over me to much...

stelow · #2 01/31/2006, 03:03 AM

Quanrantine before hand all fish; prevention is much easier than the cure for this now. With that many fish added all at once to an unestablished tank you are going to have problems. Yes daily water changes are a good idea.

piranhaking · #3 01/31/2006, 09:48 AM

did you aclimize the fish to the qt tank water?

coryherby · #4 01/31/2006, 12:18 PM

I have found in my personal experience quarantine's are very hard to deal with. I have decided I am not going to use one if buying from someone I can trust is selling already quarantined and eating fish. That doesn't include my lfs..but hate buying stuff from them anyway. so won't anymore.

Swanwillow · #5 01/31/2006, 01:27 PM

I QT fish: but not that many at once.

you probably have a hidden spike, ammonia or nitrites. test again, or use someone elses test kit, or get another test kit.

and, on a newly established QT tank... daily water changes, probably 25% for that many fish.

OR, put the unnafected fish BACK IN THE MAIN TANK since moving them around is causing more stress, and will cause an outbreak of ich ANYWAYS... just leave them alone, and if they are hardy fish, they'll make it.

davidcalgary29 · #6 01/31/2006, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by coryherby
I have found in my personal experience quarantine's are very hard to deal with.

Is QT really more difficult than trying to eradicate an introduced disease into a display tank? I'm not trying to be difficult -- just attempting to understand the mindset here.

Quote:

I have decided I am not going to use one if buying from someone I can trust is selling already quarantined and eating fish. That doesn't include my lfs..but hate buying stuff from them anyway. so won't anymore.

Uh, I don't think that I'd want to purchase livestock from anybody who was doing this.

Mariner · #7 01/31/2006, 02:40 PM

I have some questions for you; hopefully we can save the remaining fish.
Did you leave the old filter media in the powerfilter when you put it on the 55? I'm assuming that you know that you should leave it -- it would have beneficial bacteria.
Are you using any aeration in the 55?
What are you using in the QT to cure the ich, hyposalinity or copper?
What were your exact readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?
Mariner

reg828 · #8 01/31/2006, 02:45 PM

heres my water parameter, and i think the problem was the nitrite.

nitrate: 0 - 5 ppm
nitrite: .50 ppm
ph: 8.0

so, is nitrite high or what. so maybe i have to make some water changes. about how much for the 55 gal. can i use tap water with conditioner?

Mariner · #9 01/31/2006, 02:56 PM

Yes, you can use conditioned tapwater.
Yes, nitrites are high (any amount is too much), but healthy fish would be able to handle that level of nitrites with no problem.
Water changes would be good. I'd change 10gallon per day until things improved.
What is your ammonia level?
Please answer the other questions in my previous post.

Mariner

ratherbediving · #10 01/31/2006, 03:35 PM

reg828

Nitrites aren't a big deal for SW fish, it is more an issue for FW. The problem with a nitrite reading is that this is pretty much proof that your tank isn't cycled, or the filter you are using is either inadequate for the load, or the beneficial bacteria were not present when the power filter was introduced to the tank. Even if ammonia is not present now, it probably was; this could have caused or contributed to the problems you originally described.

The other possibility is that the ich moved to the gills; sometimes ich manifests as little white specs on the fish scales, other times it can infect the gills and kill the fish. Stressing a fish out can lower a fish's immunity or resistence to parasites such as ich. Lots of things can cause a fish additional stress: netting a fish out of the main tank , as well as being put in a tank that hasn't cycled yet; rapid temperature, ph and salinity changes can also cause a problem.

If you don't have any ammonia in your 55 (test to make sure), I'd just leave the remaining fish there. If you suspect ich was the cause, I'd take out the live rock you put in there and treat the tank with a copper based ich medication. Note that the fish may get ich when put back in the display unless you leave the tank as fishless for a long enough period for the ich cysts to starve to death. Note that you do not want to use the medication on any tank that will house invertebrates, they do not do well with copper at all.

If you are doing water changes, you should have a reason behind why you are doing them. Otherwise-- what does the water change accomplish? If you have ammonia in the 55, then doing a water change will help, otherwise I personally wouldn't bother.

reg828 · #11 01/31/2006, 04:07 PM

yes, the power filter, including some sand and rock that i put in there was never change in a week. exept for small amount of fiber floss. ammonia is always zero. only nitrites. im using 1100 and 600 sieo super flow for water movement and aeration. since fish are already breathing hard and not eating. i am not putting any med until my tank has been stabilized and fish eating. although salinity is little low 1.014, but i dont think that is the problem, since fish can tolerate even less. question, will water changes interrupt with the cycle of the tank. so, should i just leave everything for about to weeks and change water weekly. another question, in general, can most fish pass cycle, i mean survive the cycle unless they are not hardy?

Swanwillow · #12 01/31/2006, 04:09 PM

I'm used to seahorses, which are supposed to be harder to keep: nitrites are JUST as bad as ammonia, in smaller quantities...

baby fish will die fast from toxicity of nitrites, and it has nothing to do with salt versus fresh water. just like ammonia it can cause gill burns, and things like that in more delicate fish. hardier fish will live through some, with lots of water changes...

now, nitrATES are ok, in higher quantities than in fresh water I bet... but since I have never tested a freshwater tank for comparison, I may be wrong with that. but, fish will survive nitrate readings up to 80 and 100... thats why on nitrite readings, it goes .25 .5 1 2 3 4 5
and nitrate readings go up to 20+

davidcalgary29 · #13 01/31/2006, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ratherbediving
[B]reg828

Nitrites aren't a big deal for SW fish, it is more an issue for FW. The problem with a nitrite reading is that this is pretty much proof that your tank isn't cycled, or the filter you are using is either inadequate for the load, or the beneficial bacteria were not present when the power filter was introduced to the tank. Even if ammonia is not present now, it probably was; this could have caused or contributed to the problems you originally described.

I think that it's best to treat high nitrite readings cautiously. I have lost a number of fish/inverts to nitrite poisoning after wrongly assuming that their hardiness to slightly elevated ammonia levels (caused by death of a small fish) would translate into tolerance for this pollutant, as well. I lost my coral beauty and cleaner shrimp after a one-time spike to 1.0 ppm; both were previously healthy.

reg828 · #14 01/31/2006, 04:28 PM

bingo, swanwillow i assume it is the nitrite, and i think nitrites are more toxic than nitrates in low concentration, but some fish will survive. sorry to say that my flame died this morning and you said gill burns. i notice that my flame gills was pale.

Swanwillow · #15 01/31/2006, 05:20 PM

IF the nitrite is high enough to burn gills- it woul be around a 5 reading... not just .25 or something like that. unless prolonged exposure can do it...

the treatment for burned gills from ammonia or nitrite is methelyne blue dips... and getting them into water without the ammonia or nitrite.

BUT, I'm all for putting the fish BACK in the original tank and walking away... let the ich work itself out, and NOT stressing the fish anymore by moving them, etc...

Mariner · #16 01/31/2006, 07:48 PM

If these fish have ICH, that's what's killing them, not .25 of nitrite.
Recent research has shown that nitrite is not nearly as harmful to fish in saltwater as it is in freshwater.
Randy Holmes-Farley has researched this extensively, and reports the followingin this article :

Quote:

Marine species are less susceptible to nitrite toxicity because chloride (at 19,350 ppm in seawater) outcompetes nitrite for the same uptake mechanisms. Nevertheless, it is possible for some marine fish to take up nitrite via both their gills and their intestines after swallowing seawater. For example, when exposed to 46 ppm nitrite in seawater, the European flounder (Platichthys flesus) takes up 66% of its nitrite via intestinal routes.24 Further, its internal nitrite concentration was found to remain below the ambient nitrite level in the water. At these concentrations, there was some alteration of internal biochemical parameters (such as an increase in methemoglobin levels from 4% in nonexposed fish to 18% of hemoglobin in exposed fish). Nevertheless, there were no mortalities under these conditions, and the difference between this result and what is often observed in freshwater fish at similar nitrite concentrations is attributed to differences in their internal nitrite concentrations.

Left untreated, ICH will kill most fish. Some may survive and develop an immunity, but probably not in a cycling QT tank.
HTH,
Mariner

bertoni · #17 01/31/2006, 07:58 PM

I agree, it sounds like ich killed the fish. The stress of the move or a change in SG when they were moved to quarantine might have hurt them, too. Ammonia can be very toxic, but that measured zero, and I don't think that a "pulse" of ammonia is very likely.

reg828 · #18 02/01/2006, 06:33 AM

some fish in my tank dosnt have ich because as we do know that some fish may never be infected with ich and some do. but, when i check for "only nitrite" that was detectable all my fish were breathing heavily. although i believe ick can kill fish, but i dont think ick will kill fish when it just started 3 days ago. in my opinion, i think what have killed my fish, might be the moving and changes in sg plus the nitrites....

mcox33 · #19 02/01/2006, 07:24 AM

put them back in the main tank, at least it is cycled and presumably their home. I don't like hospital, do you. Probably they don't either, hence more stressed.

Now once they are in the main tank get the uv sterilizer going with a very slow flow rate, minimum recommended gph.

The uv sterilizer will kill the ick in the water column before it gets to the bottom of the tank, where it waits for it's next fish victim.

always run uv sterilizer and you should not have any ick problems even with new fish.

JMO

mmn_usn · #20 02/01/2006, 07:25 AM

I had alot of problems with ICH when I set up my 55. I bought 2 doctor shrimp and they seemed to keep it under control as I added more fish... then I did a water change and stirred up the sand... and it came back in full force... lost alot of fish... I then put a UV in line with my canister and the ICH seemed to disappear... it has been at least 3 months with no ICH and any fish from the LFS that gets it from the stress of being moved... gets better within 24 hrs..

reg828 · #21 02/01/2006, 07:34 AM

nice input on uv. in fact i already bought one. the 18 watt turbo twist from coralife. i just started using it today. thanks

reg828 · #22 02/01/2006, 07:42 AM

so, we can say that uv sterilizer is a breakthrough. maybe, lots of people will start using it now and then. i think its really a must for this hobby. some people will say a uv can only kill swimming stage but not when it is attach to fish. ofcourse, but ick will cycle again and go back to swimming stages. and, heres comes the uv to kill them. i think its really important equipment there is.

tsutherland · #23 02/01/2006, 11:54 AM

Are any of your fish in your tank from Petco by chance? Just read your other thread.

reg828 · #24 02/01/2006, 02:15 PM

only 3 anthias but they dont have ick. they are very healthy. the ones i bought from my lfs, that usually i didnt loose any fish was the flame angel that had ick.

Mariner · #25 02/01/2006, 04:02 PM

Uhhh...please take this in the spirit it is intended: I'm afraid that your conclusions about UV may lead someone astray. UV has been around for a long time, and so has ICH. UV may be of some benefit, but it certainly is not a break-through or must-have for curing ICH. Many tanks (including mine) operate ICH free for years without UV using proper QT. There are only two proven cures for ICH.
Please read this article on Marine ICH.
FWIW,
Mariner