Looking for your advice and input (pic intense)

Jorgens · #1 12/25/2007, 04:37 PM

I wish I would have started a chronicle when I started this tank to make this easier
We'll get the parameters out of the way first and a basic rundown:
Alk - 8
Cal - 440
Ph 8.2 ( I can't pinpoint very well but deff between 8.0 and 8.4)
PO4 - 0
trAtes - 3
no mag test kit
temp 78-79

Ok 3x 250 Mh reefulx 12k 2 weeks old 2x 96w actinics
ASM-G3
Phosban reactor with the 2-part phos remover (GFC or something it was called, granular ferric whatever)
55g fuge with cheto and 1/2 of that has a 6" DSB in it turning over 900gph thru it.
Carbon

Things we're growin great at about 1-2" a month this summer. Things started to slow down and brown as time went on. At that time I had 3 250w 15k ( very white tho) E-bay halides have since changed in a desperate attempt to keep things rollin. I had an episode where 2 of my frags went belly up over night tissue fell off and they stunk like all hell. Others we're slowly turning white, my birdsnest is completely white except for a few frags I saved.

what brought this turnaround? nothing changed?

Ok about 2 months ago I inquired about browning acros. The concensus stated that I needed more flow. Ok, I increased that about 2x. I changed my MH bulbs

Since this has all happend I have increased flow as per advise 3x hydor 4's blowing back to front as you will see in the pics. I do feed plankton about 1-2x a week about 1/4-1/3 cup home cultured fromt DT's orgionally. The fish also get a homemade mush of blended canned oysters, garlic,mysis shrimp,blood worms, raw uncooked shrimp and some vitamins. I add trace elements once a week about 20ml. I use 2-part dosing recipie #2 about 30-100 ml. usage varys latley im sure because of health reasons. I have also dosed 1/2 a tsp of sugar once everyother week to once a month to help keep trAtes down. hover at about 10ppm otherwise.

What else can I do? any thoughts? My softies are growing like mad. Stonies were, no are not. I have getting some green back in my caps since the bulb change and flow increase. but not as much as I'm hoping for. do any of you see anything I should be oncerned about? Any other pics you need to help assess the situation?

I've lost about 1/2 my stonies overall and my wife is almost in tears because the birdsnest went white. And that one went white from the base up over the period of 2 weeks before I fragged. others rotted overnight. still others are brown and no longer growing.

I haven't had a "crash" yet but would like to get on top of this and hav my tank back. I just re-landscaped to allow for better flow as well. see below for comparison pics and general layout.

landscape as of 2/07

current landscape

birdsnest as of 7/07, you can see the bleached remains in the aquascape pic right behind the yellow tang

unknown, purple and yellow (wifes favriot) 8/07

same coral today

"bright blue and green" chips (pun it's brown and loosing tissue)

was a deep hunter green in color, turning brown and white in some aeras over the last month or 2.

http://s34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...gens/Aquarium/
for even more photos.

any input is greatly appreciated at this point. I'm sure IU'm missing something. Thanks in advance for all your input.

aurora · #2 12/25/2007, 05:41 PM

First off...get a Magnesium kit or take your water to a lfs for them to spot check your Mag. If it's low then buy a kit and start getting your Mag above 1300.

Consider redoing your aquascaping to elevate you rocks off the sandbed. I would take out all small pieces of rocks and just use the larger one for now. Put the small pieces in your sump if you don't have a refugium or any other places for them. Since you don't have much coral at this point, try for a very open look....maybe 2 islands of rock away from the walls. This achieve several goals beside aesthetics. You get more flow since currents aren't blocked by a wall of rocks. Elevating your rocks off the sand will make your fish very happy since they have more hiding places and water can circulate under your rocks to keep detritus suspended for removal. Taking out the small liverocks will reduce clutter.

Jorgens · #3 12/25/2007, 05:56 PM

ok! the sand is a very fine sand and I'm having problems with it blowing around a bit. Not to mention my diamond goby always spitting it out, 1/2 that gets sucked up in the current. Ti's really not as crowded as it looks, but I would like a better looking aqua scape as well. Most of the small pieces have already been removed from the earlier pic to the second. Those are mostly large rocks. But at this point ill try anything.

Jorgens · #4 12/25/2007, 06:06 PM

I took some shots of the back side to help you determine if it's cluttered. and then 3 closer up of the front side from right to left. Still look cluttered? If so then I will remove some. I was trying to achieve more of a foreground look. witha tank only 24" wide, some of the rocks are 24" long its tough to keep open sand aeras.

sory for the over exposure.

cwegescheide · #5 12/25/2007, 07:13 PM

What is your salinity? do you know your refractometer is accurate (or other salinity measuring devise) If I were you I'd do a couple things. First, get Randy Farley's recipie for a 1.026 solution and verify your salinty is accurate. I had this problem myself. Then I'd make sure the water you are using to make your saltwater is pure. Get a TDS meter and test it to make sure its zero.

Just as long as your coral polyps are moving in the current you should be ok as far as flow goes IME.

Make sure you have good test kits, I use Lamotte kits. They are a little more expensive but I think they are worth the money considering the alternative (loosing livestock). Test often until your confident that your parameters are stable. Also I'd make sure your nitrates are < 4ppm. I don't believe they have to be zero as my corals actually faded somewhat when I got nitrates down that low.

Do plenty of water changes. I do about 10% / week on my system.

Jorgens · #6 12/25/2007, 08:22 PM

I don't surrently have a tds meter, however I checked my filters about 3 weeks ago and they we're as clean as a whistle yet. Salinity is 1.026. Sorry I forgot to post that stat.

agsansoo · #7 12/26/2007, 12:27 PM

Did you ever change your stock ballasts. If so, which ballasts are you running ?

Neptune777 · #8 12/26/2007, 12:39 PM

Sorry...DP

Neptune777 · #9 12/26/2007, 12:39 PM

If it was my tank I would ditch the sand bed...and go bare bottom or shallow sand bed with frequent cleanings. These harbor lots of garbage and can cause the issues you are experiencing.

When you say checked your RODI filters what does that mean? Visual or by TDS?

How frequently do you do water changes and how are you skimming?

Jorgens · #10 12/26/2007, 05:31 PM

I replaced my stock ballasts with Coral Vue HQI about 6 months ago. I just did a visual check on the filters as I do not currently have a TDS meter.

Water changes are about %10 a month. As the parameters we're ok I didn't se the need to change more frequently than that considering the volume. It can get pretty pricy in a large tank. I also hear of other people doing WC every 6 months. Is this no enough for catering to SPS? I have toyed with the idea of going BB.

Skimming is not wet but we get about 1 1/2 cups (actual) a week.

Jorgens · #11 12/26/2007, 08:31 PM

My understanding, the point of haveing a DSB is to be able to limit the number of water changes. Thus the reason I went this route. I add trace elements every week and have been for over a year. I have had great growth this summer and for some reason, with no changes, things started going south. If ya'll think it's the DSB I will remove it. However I'd rather not get into the habbits of WC every week as this is extremely costly in a 180g tank.

Neptune777 · #12 12/26/2007, 08:49 PM

Thanks for the additional info Jorgens.

Couple things:

1) Get a TDS reading on your RODI asap. Visual check of the filters will not tell you anything unfortunately. You want to make sure the filters are producing zero TDS at the final output of the unit.

2) DSB's do not allow you to reduce the number of water changes. They are simply a means of finishing the ammonia/nitrate cycle by allowing anaerobic bacteria to live and convert nitrates to nitrogen gas (thus completing the cycle). They work very well at first become a problem over time. This is particularly the case when used in the display and in a refugium because of the ease at which left over food and fish waste can gather in the substrate and spoil your system in time. If you want to run a DSB I prefer a remote DSB that can be changed out easily, and can also incorporate either a prefilter or fast water flow over the surface to decrease the ability of waste from settling. The idea is to have anaerobic habitiat for the bacteria without becoming a garbage dump at the same time.

3) Increase your water changes to weekly or biweekly changing 10-20% each time. Stop adding trace elements as you cannot easily test their levels, and some might be reaching toxic levels.

mcliffy2 · #13 12/27/2007, 12:01 AM

What is your total flow now? You said you increased it but didnt say what is was...for a 180g, youll want over 7000 gph total in your system.

I would also 2nd weekly water changes...give it a month doing weekly water changes (and if you use instant ocean add some calcium to make up for the low levels in the mix), and youll see results I think.

gman0526 · #14 12/27/2007, 12:31 AM

The canned clams concern me, you never know what preservatives/chems might be added even if they are rinsed b4 adding to the chum. What kind of vitamins are you adding? You're culturing and feeding phyto... are you using any kind of fertilizer?

Any algae growth other than coralline? Is there any waste settling on your rock? Flow is not a numbers issue it is a matter of how it's used in the tank, you could put 10 Tunzes in the tank and if none of the dirt goes over your overflow to your skimmer then you're really not doing much more than blowing dirty water on your corals.

HBtank · #15 12/27/2007, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neptune777
Thanks for the additional info Jorgens.

Couple things:

1) Get a TDS reading on your RODI asap. Visual check of the filters will not tell you anything unfortunately. You want to make sure the filters are producing zero TDS at the final output of the unit.

2) DSB's do not allow you to reduce the number of water changes. They are simply a means of finishing the ammonia/nitrate cycle by allowing anaerobic bacteria to live and convert nitrates to nitrogen gas (thus completing the cycle). They work very well at first become a problem over time. This is particularly the case when used in the display and in a refugium because of the ease at which left over food and fish waste can gather in the substrate and spoil your system in time. If you want to run a DSB I prefer a remote DSB that can be changed out easily, and can also incorporate either a prefilter or fast water flow over the surface to decrease the ability of waste from settling. The idea is to have anaerobic habitiat for the bacteria without becoming a garbage dump at the same time.

3) Increase your water changes to weekly or biweekly changing 10-20% each time. Stop adding trace elements as you cannot easily test their levels, and some might be reaching toxic levels.

I hardly see how you can blame the DSB and reference it as a "garbage dump" when he clearly stated his nutrient levels, which are not high.

It may be your personal preference to not use one, but there is nothing here to point to it as a problem. And even if he did have elevated nutrients, I might look at import/export before substrate etc..

Many use them with great success, including me, in both the display and refugium.

Anyways, Jorgens, what brands are your test kits? 8 DKh is not low, but definately borderline when considering fluctuations.. You may be having drops in Alk to 7 or below, or if the kit is not an accurate, be lower than you think. I personally recommend staying at 9 as a target level. I run 9-10 and use an automatic doser. Before setting it up I was surprised how much my Alk dropped every day....

You also need a Mg kit. It is essential to have accurate measurements for Alk, CA and Mg to keep acros. IMO it is the most important thing. I have seen high nutrient tank with great colors, but never a tank with inconsistant values for ALK, CA and mg.

I also agree with getting a TDS meter and upping the water changes.

Also, think about a dosing system. I use two part and peristaltic pumps on a timer (controller). It has worked awesomefor me.

I really think stabilization at good levels, increased water changes, and confirming you have 0 TDS filtered water will solve your problems.

I might try other food as well, there have been recent examples here on RC of seafood intended for human consumption causing RTN in acros.

coqui1pr · #16 12/27/2007, 04:10 AM

Also stop dosing sugar (A carbon source for bacteria) into the tank you are driving the nutrients down too fast for your corals you already have a DSB in the works and chaeto algae in the fuge it will take care of your nitrate problem in time just be patient also stop dosing the trace elements instead go with by weekly water changes of 10% and dont use canned foods for your tank it has preservatives that could be harmful to your inhabitants only freshly collected food for your tank.

HTH
Nestor

Dejavu · #17 12/27/2007, 06:30 AM

The tip of your sps look like they might have a little alk burn. I like to keep the alk a little higher than 8 dhk when using two part. There is to much sing in alk between doses. You sould also test your Mg. I have seen this happen in an other tank and the Mg was around 800 ppm.

SPStoner · #18 12/27/2007, 08:55 AM

I think you are on the right track. As a few have stated, Calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity are probably the three most important parameters for stony coral health. Get a good test kit for these three. I prefer Hach, Instant Ocean, or Lamotte. Spending the extra $$ on these three kits can save you plenty in the long run. Your flow is fine, as are your lights. (more to follow on this...)

I think your aquascape looks ok now. Are you getting good flow behind and between the rocks? This is important as over time, detritus will settle in just about every area that there is insufficient flow and will cause problems similar to what you are seeing. Also, it was mentioned already, but double check whatever device you are using to check your salinity. Maybe take some water to a LFS and have them check it to compare to your readings. Seems redundant, but like cwegescheide I had this same problem many years ago and it turned out to be a bad hydrometer. I would definitely stop adding any trace elements, as mentioned earlier. There is no way to test for them, and most of what is depleted can be made up, in the proper amounts, via water changes.

Now, two more things. First, inspect your remaining acros very closely for pests such as AEFW (flat worms) and Red Bugs. There are many good threads in this forum to help you identify them.
You should be quarantining all new corals and frags prior to introduction into your display. At the least, a preventative dip.

Next, regarding lighting. If the color of the corals is more important to you than growth, you should go with a bluer halide bulb, like a 20K or at the least, a 14K like Phoenix or Aquaconnect. Do a search for Sanjay's lighting studies for a comprehensive analysis of many of the available bulbs. I have not used the Reeflux bulbs yet, so these may be blue enough, but not sure form the pictures.... You may also want to eventually add more supplemental actinic, preferably VHO's. These will really make the colors pop in your SPS.

Last thing, Birdsnext, in my experience, do not like bright light. My 6 colonies all look much better when I keep them very low in the tank, away from direct halide light.

Try not to get too frustrated. Make changes in husbandry one at a time and be patient. If you change 4 things at once, you will never know which if any fixed the problem, and may end up creating new ones.

Hope that helps....

Tony

Neptune777 · #19 12/27/2007, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HBtank
I hardly see how you can blame the DSB and reference it as a "garbage dump" when he clearly stated his nutrient levels, which are not high.

It may be your personal preference to not use one, but there is nothing here to point to it as a problem. And even if he did have elevated nutrients, I might look at import/export before substrate etc..

Many use them with great success, including me, in both the display and refugium.

Anyways, Jorgens, what brands are your test kits? 8 DKh is not low, but definately borderline when considering fluctuations.. You may be having drops in Alk to 7 or below, or if the kit is not an accurate, be lower than you think. I personally recommend staying at 9 as a target level. I run 9-10 and use an automatic doser. Before setting it up I was surprised how much my Alk dropped every day....

You also need a Mg kit. It is essential to have accurate measurements for Alk, CA and Mg to keep acros. IMO it is the most important thing. I have seen high nutrient tank with great colors, but never a tank with inconsistant values for ALK, CA and mg.

I also agree with getting a TDS meter and upping the water changes.

Also, think about a dosing system. I use two part and peristaltic pumps on a timer (controller). It has worked awesomefor me.

I really think stabilization at good levels, increased water changes, and confirming you have 0 TDS filtered water will solve your problems.

I might try other food as well, there have been recent examples here on RC of seafood intended for human consumption causing RTN in acros.

Perhaps my point was not clear. If food and waste settle in a DSB it will become a problem in time... His flow is not adequate and I would guarantee that there is waste settling under and around the rocks.

Yes it is my preference not to use a DSB for the reasons I mentioned previously. In his tank I would certainly see his DSB as being a problem. Nitrates and Phosphates are just one piece of the puzzle...

Jorgens · #20 12/27/2007, 04:43 PM

Wow a wealth of info. All appreciated.

As for the DSB I do have a diamond goby which keeps the top layers of my sand free from garbage. He is a work-a-holic and as suck I don't have detritus problems with the top layer. He does not get down more than 2 inches at most only in some specific spaces ( his house). So while I can appreciate the BB metod I prefer to stick with a DSB for astheticas as well at this point. But believer me if nothing else works it's outta here. Flow is approx 4500gph turnover. Water is flowing nicely thru the rocks up the back and then blasted out front again.

Alk burn I'm real curious on this and I know my alk swings at least 9-8 and sometimes 10 as I manually dose yet at this point. If this causes the tips to "burn" which certainly looks like what is happening, I'm going to look at investing in some dosing pumps to keep it stable. Calcium never swings and is almost always 440. But alk I have seen swing from 10-8 and I try to average it at 9 as bvest I can.

Trace elemnts are outta here for now, and I'm currently prepping for a WC this weekend when it's stablizied. I will do weekly untill things get back to normal and then we'll see what we have.

The canned oysters I used in the mush was actually used up 2 months ago. It contained nothing but pure oysters that had been cannd in water. nothing added. I do use fresh human food chopped in this mixture as well and If that has ben a problem for some I will discontinue ASAP. I had not heard of that.

So....What do we feed for corals? I'm already going plankton 1-2x a week about 1/4-1/3 cup. anything else?

I will get a TDS meter as well ASAP and a mag test kit. I'm thinking at this point it's the inconsistant in dosing that may be part the cause.

I have lookd for red-bugs and flatworms but have found nothing thus far. That was my first thought.

Again all the input is greatly appreciated. I at least have some new ideas to try.

mclaman · #21 12/27/2007, 05:55 PM

People have told me numerous times that I should not mix soft corals with SPS. And that the soft corals will negatively effect the growth of the SPS.

I would get rid of most of your softies (leathers and colts). I only keep a neon green toadstool and one neon green sinularia in my tank.

HBtank · #22 12/27/2007, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neptune777
Perhaps my point was not clear. If food and waste settle in a DSB it will become a problem in time... His flow is not adequate and I would guarantee that there is waste settling under and around the rocks.

Yes it is my preference not to use a DSB for the reasons I mentioned previously. In his tank I would certainly see his DSB as being a problem. Nitrates and Phosphates are just one piece of the puzzle...

If his flow is not adequate for a DSB, it is certainly not adequate for a BB.....

Again, I just do not see the logic or any connection to his situation. Just personal preference of substrate. I see it over and over here, someone sees a person with a problem and a DSB and points to it as the problem. Ignoring the numerous successful DSB tanks or BB tanks with similar issues.

You could have just recommended more flow, as he would need it anyways with a BB change. Amongst other upgrades.... if you follow the common guides for properly setting up a BB tank.

coqui1pr · #23 12/27/2007, 11:06 PM

I have seen many many tanks with a DSB that doing great there are many variables to why a tank is not doing ok as for the waste and detritus accumulating around and behind the rocks you could try some sort of natural cleaners i have in my tank a couple of sea cucumbers that are doing the job just fine i dont see them in weeks and sometimes even a month or two but i know the are doing their job here is couple of pics of two of them who decided to come out tonight also before the water gets into the fuge area you can filter it with 100 micron sock to minimize the amount of waste that gets there also i have several serpent stars some of them are 4 years old and you can use blue leg hermit crabs to clean up the additional food that doesnt get eaten IMHO nothing beats natural filtration for me.

HTH
Nestor

Here are the pics

Jorgens · #24 12/28/2007, 09:35 AM

I do have a large clean up imo. I'd like more cuces but haven't gotton any yet. I have about 75 blue hermits/5scarlet reef hermits/20red legged hermits/30asteria snails/100's of ceriths that clean at night, 20+ nassarius/1 sand-sifting star 2 serpent stars 1 tiger-tail 5 peppermint shrimp. And my wonderful Diamond goby.

So the sand stays pretty clean.

I have had all of them for 9 months or better. I do not ever see detritus lying around even by rock in the back of the tank. I think If flow/detritus problem was the case I'd see higher nitrates. But maybe I'm wrong.