Common Misconceptions In the Hobby

[capn_hylinur]

I second that---absolutely a great tip--oops gotta go and try this one out

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
Also, it is believed that many corals synthesize their own amino acids, so providing it for them seems a little redundant. It has not even been shown that all corals are capable of absorbing amino acids from the water column, and those that do only do so at very low rates. Lastly it's quite possible, considering the slow uptake of amino acids by corals, that a protein skimmer and tiny organisms would eliminate a large percentage of any dosed amino acids.

You know, I'm normally not a big fan of amino-dosing, but I think you're missing a bit here.

First off, it has been shown that quite a few corals can uptake various aminos via studies ... and few such abilities in nature exist [or are kept around] if of no benefit to the organism. They're not doing it to expend energy - while you are correct that quite a few aminos can be synthesized by corals, I don't think it's been proven that all are. And, if I remember that study right, not all corals did this to the same extent. [some probably have more external demand than others]

You're right that perhaps most might first be consumed by bacteria [IMO probably the #1 consumer of aminos in most aquaria] .... but that ignores the fact that bacterial detritus/bacteria can significantly contribute to the diet of our corals - which could be considered to be `gut loaded' with aminos, the same as we do for many of our foods.

And, it sure seems like it has be conclusively shown that many corals can uptake aminos. Has it been conclusively shown in a scientific study that they consume and utilize cyclops-eeze or other aquarium-market foods?

Just throwing it out there

[RichConley]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
You know, I'm normally not a big fan of amino-dosing, but I think you're missing a bit here.

First off, it has been shown that quite a few corals can uptake various aminos via studies ... and few such abilities in nature exist [or are kept around] if of no benefit to the organism. They're not doing it to expend energy - while you are correct that quite a few aminos can be synthesized by corals, I don't think it's been proven that all are. And, if I remember that study right, not all corals did this to the same extent. [some probably have more external demand than others]

Mark, but none of the studies have any way of discerning whether or not theyre uptaking them as aminos, or breaking them down first.

IE, theres no way to tell whether or not theyre any different than just fish food.

[RichConley]

Heres another myth:


Freshly hatchd brine shrimp Nauplii should be enriched/gutloaded with phyto and selcon.


They dont even develope a mouth until the instar II stage, which doesnt occur until 36 hours after feeding.

[cayars]

Originally posted by virginiadiver69
cayars, Do you have any pics of your system? Sounds really interesting.

http://www.saltylivestock.com

Just started working on it the other day. I need to finish populating my fish (about 2/3 done) and need to put some more pics up including all my corals)

Carlo

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
You know, I'm normally not a big fan of amino-dosing, but I think you're missing a bit here.

First off, it has been shown that quite a few corals can uptake various aminos via studies ... and few such abilities in nature exist [or are kept around] if of no benefit to the organism. They're not doing it to expend energy - while you are correct that quite a few aminos can be synthesized by corals, I don't think it's been proven that all are. And, if I remember that study right, not all corals did this to the same extent. [some probably have more external demand than others]

You're right that perhaps most might first be consumed by bacteria [IMO probably the #1 consumer of aminos in most aquaria] .... but that ignores the fact that bacterial detritus/bacteria can significantly contribute to the diet of our corals - which could be considered to be `gut loaded' with aminos, the same as we do for many of our foods.

And, it sure seems like it has be conclusively shown that many corals can uptake aminos. Has it been conclusively shown in a scientific study that they consume and utilize cyclops-eeze or other aquarium-market foods?

Just throwing it out there

You say many corals can uptake amino acids, I say we don't fully know what corals can and can't. I guess the wording on that one just depends on what side you want to argue for Perhaps it hasn't been proven that all amino acids can be synthesized by corals, I don't ever expect it to be because I HIGHLY doubt they can. Mainly because the studies that I've seen suggest that a limited amount of amino acids appear to be of benefit.

There are a lot of things that can be consumed by bacteria, such as ammonium. It has been shown that the uptake of ammonium greatly outpaces amino acids as a nitrogen source for corals and that the even in areas with the highest concentration of amino acids those amino acids were only shown to contribute a very small percentage of the nitrogen demand of the corals. Seems like peeing in our aquariums would be of more benefit to our corals than dosing amino acids. However, I wouldn't suggest dosing urine or amino acids

Even if there has been no scientific study showing that certain corals utilize cyclopeeze it seems even if they don't that the breakdown of various foods in the aquarium would provide more nutrition than an expensive bottle of fancy amino acids.

[miwoodar]

myth - You can learn everything you need to know on a website.

RC is fantastic. The web in general is fantastic. However, thread chatter is not a complete body of information. It's good to supplement with books and articles from well respected authors. Sprung, Delbeek, Tullock, Riddle, Borneman, Theil, Adey, Paletta, Fenner, Calfo, Moe, where to stop?

I know people who have been reefing for a very long time that wouldn't even recognize a single name on this list. Reading the authors who started the discussions that we continue to chat about on a daily basis would not only help our personal pursuits as reefers but also the entire reefing community on the whole.

[HBtank]

Calfo? You're telling me an overflow wrote a book?

[miwoodar]

The overflow actually didn't write anything. The co-author wrote it all!

[amphirion]

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
Our hobby is a very very real threat to reefs. The Philippines are a perfect example of this. Our hobby is certainly not the only factor that contributed to the destruction of the reefs there, but it's was a significant factor. Thing is, collection of corals isn't nearly as destructive to reefs as improper fish collection is.

Once there was this question "Fish Rap" in Aquarium Fish Magasine that was: What is the responsability of the reefkeeping hobby towards natural coral reefs? I answered that question and my answer did appear in the February 2007 edition of the Aquarium Fish Magasine.

What I think is that our hobby isn't that much of a pain for coral reefs because I'm sure that in a few years species that are gone in the sea because of weather changes or overfishing will still thrive in our tanks because we can control temperature, flow, predation and water quality and these are some things that can we can't control in nature. Some species will be saved from extinction because some people decided to take a few specimens from the reefs and to keep them in aquariums. That's the way I see it.


And I really wanted to say something else.. Another myth: You have to quarantine EVERYTHING before putting into your main tank.

Well, I never quarantined any fish invertebrate or coral before putting into the main tank and I never saw an animal die because of that. That is the same case for all my friends. The thing to remember is to buy only healthy specimems that eats in front of your eyes at the fish store. And you should not buy a fish that just arrived at the lfs. Wait one week, them come to see it; if it's a fat healthy fish that eats and is disease free, I personally don't see the need to quarantine such fish. A one hour acclimatation to my tank has always been successful for any coral, fish or invertebrate.

What I just said on quarantine doesn't apply on fish that you buy online. These should be quarantined until you are sure they are disease free and are eating prior adding them to your display.

My 2 cents

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by amphirion
Once there was this question "Fish Rap" in Aquarium Fish Magasine that was: What is the responsability of the reefkeeping hobby towards natural coral reefs? I answered that question and my answer did appear in the February 2007 edition of the Aquarium Fish Magasine.

What I think is that our hobby isn't that much of a pain for coral reefs because I'm sure that in a few years species that are gone in the sea because of weather changes or overfishing will still thrive in our tanks because we can control temperature, flow, predation and water quality and these are some things that can we can't control in nature. Some species will be saved from extinction because some people decided to take a few specimens from the reefs and to keep them in aquariums. That's the way I see it.


And I really wanted to say something else.. Another myth: You have to quarantine EVERYTHING before putting into your main tank.

Well, I never quarantined any fish invertebrate or coral before putting into the main tank and I never saw an animal die because of that. That is the same case for all my friends. The thing to remember is to buy only healthy specimems that eats in front of your eyes at the fish store. And you should not buy a fish that just arrived at the lfs. Wait one week, them come to see it; if it's a fat healthy fish that eats and is disease free, I personally don't see the need to quarantine such fish. A one hour acclimatation to my tank has always been successful for any coral, fish or invertebrate.

What I just said on quarantine doesn't apply on fish that you buy online. These should be quarantined until you are sure they are disease free and are eating prior adding them to your display.

My 2 cents

I don't think anyone has ever said you have to quarantine everything, but you really should. Maybe you've been lucky, maybe many people you know have been lucky, but countless pests, diseases, algaes, etc. have been added to display aquariums that could have been prevented by a simple quarantine tank. That said I've never been real big on quarantine tanks for myself, and I usually get lucky, but I know I should be quarantining everything. Just because a coral or a fish appears halethy and is eating does not mean it can't intriduce something nasty to a display tank.

As to the destruction of corals reefs as a result of the aquarium hobby, it's an undeniable fact that it has happened and is happening. Like I said, there are many factors and causes besides our hobby, and perhaps certain corals would go extinct without any interference from humans. Perhaps some of those corals will still exist in aquariums for years to come. However, I don't see that as any justification for the destruction this hobby has caused.

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
You say many corals can uptake amino acids, I say we don't fully know what corals can and can't.

Frankly, I think this makes quite evident a major weakness of a thread like this.

We don't have the specialists and those with great knowledge on this subject - and when making sweeping generalizations about the efficacy of methods, IMO ignoring those who have detailed knowledge of subjects seriously weakens any discussion.

I'd seriously suggest having this exact discussion with mcsaxmaster, mesocosm, and some other highly studied folks as IME they'd likely disagree with your statements as well.

In the end, you're mixing opinion and study without discrimination IMO - with opinions being valued as highly as published articles by scientists in the field.

Given radio-labeled aminos were found in the corals, and given the marine biologists I've spoken with suggest that they are being taken in by the corals .... I just don't see why hobbyist opinions on whether this happens or not are relevant.

JMO, though.

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
Frankly, I think this makes quite evident a major weakness of a thread like this.

We don't have the specialists and those with great knowledge on this subject - and when making sweeping generalizations about the efficacy of methods, IMO ignoring those who have detailed knowledge of subjects seriously weakens any discussion.

I'd seriously suggest having this exact discussion with mcsaxmaster, mesocosm, and some other highly studied folks as IME they'd likely disagree with your statements as well.

In the end, you're mixing opinion and study without discrimination IMO - with opinions being valued as highly as published articles by scientists in the field.

Given radio-labeled aminos were found in the corals, and given the marine biologists I've spoken with suggest that they are being taken in by the corals .... I just don't see why hobbyist opinions on whether this happens or not are relevant.

JMO, though.

I can see your point----but I "assumed" when Peter started this thread that it was going to be kept to simpler misconceptions--obviously not for the newbie but kind of like the middle experienced--in my own case it has taken time to develop such misguided misconceptions
This thread from about page 5 on might be better in the advanced forum where it might attract more of the writers that you would deem experts or worthy of discussing these concepts at a level acceptable to your wisdom and expertise?

I personally get enjoyment out all this---I think it is great---but I don't think all do--its becoming too technical for the middle experienced ---and doesn't have enough participation by experts to attract more experts.

Also speaking from a vary narrow scheme of things at this point in the hobby-----Guys like boomer and Bartaloni---they mentored with one of the greatest in the hobby Randy Holmes---don't you feel they are worthy of discussing at your level?
I am not insuating that you feel you are better then the rest of us---but in reality you are more experienced and knowledgeable--its reality and that's life--so my post is noway considered a criticism
the bottom line is I hope this thread goes back to basics more so I can actively participate---this is how I learn the best.
In awe of the fantastic knowledgable experienced people at Reef Escape
Sincerely
Scott

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
Frankly, I think this makes quite evident a major weakness of a thread like this.

We don't have the specialists and those with great knowledge on this subject - and when making sweeping generalizations about the efficacy of methods, IMO ignoring those who have detailed knowledge of subjects seriously weakens any discussion.

I'd seriously suggest having this exact discussion with mcsaxmaster, mesocosm, and some other highly studied folks as IME they'd likely disagree with your statements as well.

In the end, you're mixing opinion and study without discrimination IMO - with opinions being valued as highly as published articles by scientists in the field.

Given radio-labeled aminos were found in the corals, and given the marine biologists I've spoken with suggest that they are being taken in by the corals .... I just don't see why hobbyist opinions on whether this happens or not are relevant.

JMO, though.

My point with the statement you quoted is that we know some corals uptake amino acids, we know some don't, and we even know others produce amino acids. I don't know where you're coming from with saying I'm ignoring people with detailed knowledge of a subject. I don't see where that has been the case with this. The two guys you mentioned are more than welcome to join in on the discussion whoevere they are. I'd love to see the info they have that shows the great benefits of dosing amino acids as opposed to just supplying those amino acids through a food source.

I feel the ones that are mixing opinion and study and making the broad sweeping generalizations are the ones that are strongly promoting the use if amino acids. Simply because some (even most) corals have been shown to be capable of taking in amino acids from the water column does not mean we should be dumping them in our tank. We know so little about how much dosing amino acids would benefit a tank, we know that it's by no means a necessary thing to do, and it appears that uptake of amino acids from the water is a rather insignificant part of coral nutrition. So I don't see the harm in what you're considering a broad sweeping generalization. I'd like to add that at no point did I say people absolutely shouldn't add amino acids to their aquarium. Until someone comes out with studies that contradicts those done so far it appears that aquarium companies offering amino acids are doing nothing more than twisting scientific literature around and cashing in on the latest fad additive. Hey, something has to make up for the drop in sales from molybdenum, iodine, and strontium supplements

P.S. Let me state again, not once did I dispute that many corals are capable of taking in amino acids. Not all are capable, many are, and we simply don't know with various species that have not been studied.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur

the bottom line is I hope this thread goes back to basics more so I can actively participate---this is how I learn the best.

Well, lets throttle it back a litle then

Misconception: Acropora is pronounced ack-row-poor-uh or something close to it.

The proper pronunciation is closer to ah-crop-O-ruh. This one is so common in the hobby that I've stopped pronouncing it properly when I talk to most hobbyists. I got tired of people looking at me like I was some sort of idiot for not knowing how to say Acropora

[fishdoc11]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark

In the end, you're mixing opinion and study without discrimination IMO

I would have to agree.......unfortunately this thread has denigrated to the point that almost as much misconception is being spouted as is being disputed

It's just another "who do you believe" for those that are in the early learning stages.

JMO, Chris

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
Well, lets throttle it back a litle then

Misconception: Acropora is pronounced ack-row-poor-uh or something close to it.

The proper pronunciation is closer to ah-crop-O-ruh. This one is so common in the hobby that I've stopped pronouncing it properly when I talk to most hobbyists. I got tired of people looking at me like I was some sort of idiot for not knowing how to say Acropora

ha ha---comeone Peter I was actually defending you and other experts on this site-----and defending the half experienced half knowledge people like my self on this site--just like us baby boomers we are getting old but we are staying in full use of our brain powers-----so we still can recognize when someone is patonizing us
IMO---learning the correct way to pronounce acropora is going to enhance my ability as a reef keeper by ?
Then I coudl be reading the post to serious ---I apologize if I have--life's to short to not laugh

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
ha ha---comeone Peter I was actually defending you and other experts on this site-----and defending the half experienced half knowledge people like my self on this site--just like us baby boomers we are getting old but we are staying in full use of our brain powers-----so we still can recognize when someone is patonizing us
IMO---learning the correct way to pronounce acropora is going to enhance my ability as a reef keeper by ?
Then I coudl be reading the post to serious ---I apologize if I have--life's to short to not laugh

I know you were defending me and what I posted was not meant to be patronizing in the least. I was just trying to get back on the track of discussing things that are a little more common and less off the beaten path. I admit, not all that useful, but something I thought might be interesting to some. There are still a ton of things I say improperly so I'm hardly making fun of anyone. When you read something in a book or online over and over again and never hear anyone say it you form your own idea of how it should sound. Even after you learn you've been saying something wrong it's hard to break the habit of saying things the old way.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by fishdoc11
I would have to agree.......unfortunately this thread has denigrated to the point that almost as much misconception is being spouted as is being disputed

It's just another "who do you believe" for those that are in the early learning stages.

JMO, Chris

Easy to say, especially without specific references as to what misconceptions you think we're 'spouting'. Sure, this thread is about pointing out misconceptions, but it's also about debate and better understanding. So, jump in the mix, lets hear what you have a problem with...

By the way, I think you mean degenerated since you're denigrating this thread.

[davidryder]

This thread is fun!!!

[mbbuna]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark


I'd seriously suggest having this exact discussion with mcsaxmaster, mesocosm, and some other highly studied folks as IME they'd likely disagree with your statements as well.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/se...der=descending

[pledosophy]

Originally posted by Peter Eichler

3.) 75-77 degrees is a good temperature for a reef tank or tropical fish only tank.

The majority of our corals come from corals and fish come from waters that range in temperature anywhere from 76-90 degrees with average temps in the low 80's. There are certainly creatures that are an exception such as those from Japan, Australia, and deeper waters which are more usesd to temperatures a little lower.

Conclusion: The old magic 76 degree mark has little merit and I'm not sure how it ever came to be in the first place. Maintaining temperatures in the low 80's is probably most natural and will suit most fish/coral available in the industry. Thankfully this has become more accepted in recent years.

Peter I got mad love for ya but somehow I always seem to find the "exception" to the rule in your threads.

I keep my reef heater set at 78F in the summer it stays around 80 in the winter right about 78. However much like you stated that zoo's and SPS have different requirements, not all tropical marine fish will do well at a temp of 80f.

Take seahorses for example. While they can live at 80F long term keepers have reported much better long term success keeping at temps below 74F. The reason being is the affects from certain bacteria's (mainly vibrio related). The bacteria's become more virtulent at higher temperatures and actually release different proteins then they do at the lower temperatures. Keeping a tank at 74 F or below helps stop the reproduction of the more aggresive bacteria, while keeping the temp at 69F actualy stops the bacteria growth completely. Much of these finding come from Dr. Belli and can be found in the book Working Notes, 2006. Noga also has similiar findings, but I can't afford his book.

While seahorses in the wild can survive and thrive at much higher temperatures do to dillution, the same is not so in a closed system.

JME

[pledosophy]

Originally posted by greenbean36191
I just keep thinking of more and more.

12.) Mariculture and aquaculture are different methods of farming corals.

Aquaculture is underwater agriculture. Mariculture is simply marine aquaculture. In the context of the hobby, since all of our animals are marine, they are synonyms. Neither one implies anything about the culture method used or where it's done.

IME mariculture has always been used to descibe culturing animals in the ocean, while aquaculture is used to describe culturing animals in a closed system, like a tank.

There have been great differences in the animals produced in these two very different types of culturing methods IME.

13.) Trading frags helps save the reefs.

Reducing the demand for wild corals may help some, but it won't make a very big dent in the amount of corals being taken from the reef. As large as it has gotten, the live coral trade is still small compared to other uses for the reef such as construction. Regardless of the demand from the hobby, there will always be more demand for corals than supply and the collectors will always need jobs. To truly reduce the amount of corals being taken, economic alternatives to harvesting from the reef have to be offered and simply cutting our demand doesn't do that. Eco-tourism and responsible aquaculture are two possibilities.

It's a start. It's what we can do. No coral in my tank came directly from the ocean, it all came as frags from a fellow reefers or stores tank. I am not the only person I know like this. The more we learn, the better we can continue this. I also by CB fish whenever available and contribute to the CB fish market myslef.

[davidryder]

I thought seahorses had completely different temp requirements than reef species...

[happyface888]

Wow this is a interesting thread, My reefer sense's are tingaling....."another thread of the month: