GARLIC POLL: Your opinions needed!!

[musty baby]

Originally posted by wooden_reefer
the best nutrition and defense against ich is useless in an aquarium.

You lost me. Could you reword this? Sounds like you're saying that proper nutrition is the best defense, which I would agree with, and that even proper nutrition is not effective in controlling ich in our tanks, which I do not agree with.

[wooden_reefer]

Originally posted by ryansholl
You lost me. Could you reword this? Sounds like you're saying that proper nutrition is the best defense, which I would agree with, and that even proper nutrition is not effective in controlling ich in our tanks, which I do not agree with.

That is right, proper nutrition is useless against ich.

Ich is a disease caused by confinement that alters the dilution effect of the ocean. The dilution effect makes ich a mere brief parasite that leaves on its own as a part of its lifecycle. Only absent this dilution effect is ich a killer.

Actually, the impact of confinement is evident in many other diseases, but the case of ich is the most extreme.

The role of nutrition should be emphasised, but not over emphasised.

[michaeljames]

I use it as a "preventative" been using over a year and have no ich yet...

[coastalaqu]

I think garlic enhances the appetite but i dont believe it cures or prvents ich. Ive fed garlic soaked foods for years. I had a pbt that had ich on and off for a year. It ate garlic food 2 days before he gave up the fight. It was kind of a bummer.

[rickkott13]

i use them to boost up the smell/taste to get my fish eating like crazy. thats the main thing i use garlic anything else is a myth.

[barbra]

In several years I have 2 outbreaks of ich in my tank. Both times garlic has cured it. I am NOT saying that it stimulated appetite which then led to recovery, I am saying that the ich was cured by garlic, and my fish weren't balking at food anyway.

Garlic has been known for years to be a mild antibiotic, so why do people have such a hard time accepting it's efficacy?

[FunkieReefJunkie]

http://www.allicin.com/#OtherCompounds
Here's what i've noticed. When I fed it to a new fish just showing signs of parasites I was able to stifle the problem without going chemical till I could get my hands on the right meds. When I put the garlic itself chopped up fine into my display (an experiment) the sps extended their polyps big time. When placing in my sps quarantine tank trying to treat what I thought were AEN on newly acquired frags it took such high levels of garlic to effect the nudi I nuked the QT. As in tank clouded, frags burned up and my fish room smelled like a cheesey Chinese restaurant. No ill effects on the peppermint shrimp, snails or pods at all. I think garlic carries a powerful punch, but when and how to use it for what scenarios is difficult to say. Some of these meds used on fish are known carcinogens. If they can be avoided by useing garlic then I can't see any harm done.

[ryan_paskadi]

Garlic is saposed to be good for you immune system according to the guy at GNC. Maybe it has the same positive immune effects in fish.

[phish guy]

garlic worked on my tang. so whatever, it seems to do something.

[jnarowe]

I have taken a lot of heat for my use of garlic, but so be it. For whatever reason, it seems to help. I believe it is entirely due to the scent. When I add it to my fish food, I believe the fish are more aware and attracted to the food. I make all my own food BTW, and do not use any dry food such as flakes or pellets.

What I have found is that good nutrition can bolster fish' immune systems and help them fight off disease. I had an Ich outbreak early in my reef's life, and my PBT looked like he was a gonner. I tried to trap him out but he refused to go into the trap. In the meantime, I fed 3x per day only frozen food I made from fresh ingredients and infused with Garlic. Sounds stupid I know, but that PBT has never been sicjk since and is a beautiful fish. I owe high quality food and garlic for that.

Maybe it's the anti-oxidants, maybe just the attractant, but for me, it has worked well.

[Steven Pro]

Garlic - What Has Been Studied Versus What Has Been Claimed

[dendro982]

I voted "misconception", but would rater prefer an option "doesn't work in many cases".
My fish eat Formula 2 flakes with garlic, but refuse homemade mix with garlic. With no garlic - eat.

[SPACEMANS2]

From my own experience when I get a sick fish i soaked fresh finely cut cloves of garlic in water for a few hours, then I strain it and then pour the water directly in my tank. I don't even mix it with food. After a day or two whatever ailment my fish had is gone. I'm sure this method may not work with every disese but it hasn't failed me yet. people han say what they want about the herbal garlic treatment but I know it works.

[SPACEMANS2]

Potent, Even Against Drug-Resistant Strains of Bacteria
Results of two studies suggest that garlic is a potent antibiotic, even against strains that have become resistant to many drugs. One study conducted at the University of California Irvine Medical Center and published in the December 2003 issue of Nutrition showed that garlic juice, even when diluted up to 1:128 of the original juice, demonstrates significant antibacterial activity against a spectrum of pathogens including antibiotic-resistant strains such as methicillin- and ciprofloxacin-resistant staphylococci, vancomycin-resistant enterococci, and ciprofloxacin-resistant Pseudomonas aeruginosa. A second study found that garlic was able to inhibit methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MSRA) from human patients that was injected into laboratory animals.(MSRA is one of the antibiotic resistant bacteria whose incidence has risen dramatically in recent years in hospitals.)


http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=60

[jman77]

Garlic works... it works in human and animals..been proven in both.

The problem with garlic though is that the cloves have to be freshly broken and the liquid administered since the chemicals that cause garlic to have these marvelous fighting ability loose their potency soon after the clove has been crushed. This is proven people, Garlic has been used to fight off numerous ailments for thousands of years... everything from infections to parasites. There was a study published around 16 years ago that proved fish fed food that had garlic in it had less infections and parasites than the fish that were fed food lacking it.

Now the Garlic liquid in bottles that you buy in the store are junk, it has to be fresh to work in this application; which will not be possible with prepacked liquid.

People that say it doesn't work are just not well informed , or do not know how to correctly administer it.

From Wiki,
"Garlic has been used as both food and medicine in many cultures for thousands of years, dating as far back as the time that the Egyptian pyramids were built. Garlic is claimed to help prevent heart disease including atherosclerosis, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, and cancer.[9]

Animal studies, and some early investigational studies in humans, have suggested possible cardiovascular benefits of garlic"

"In 2007 a BBC news story reported that Allium sativum may have beneficial properties, such as preventing and fighting the common cold.[16] This assertion has the backing of long tradition. Traditional British herbalism used garlic for hoarseness and coughs, both as a syrup and in a salve made of garlic and lard, which was rubbed on the chest and back.[17] The Cherokee also used it as an expectorant for coughs and croup."

"When crushed, Allium sativum yields allicin, a powerful antibiotic and anti-fungal compound (phytoncide). However due to poor bioavailability it is of limited use for oral consumption. It also contains alliin, ajoene, enzymes, vitamin B, minerals, and flavonoids."

"Garlic has been reasonably successfully used in AIDS patients to treat cryptosporidium in an uncontrolled study in China.[26] It has also been used by at least one AIDS patient to treat toxoplasmosis another protozoal disease.[27]"

"In modern naturopathy, garlic is used as a treatment for intestinal worms and other intestinal parasites, both orally and as an anal suppository. Garlic cloves are used as a remedy for infections (especially chest problems), digestive disorders, and fungal infections such as thrush."


Nuff said -- jman77

[jnarowe]

So here's a possible issue though...if it is indeed a powerful anti-bacterial, perhaps that can damage the good bacteria we need to keep our reefs clean? Just a thought.

[jman77]

That's why you administer it via food , and not just dump a thimble of the juice in the tank.

[greenbean36191]

People that say it doesn't work are just not well informed , or do not know how to correctly administer it.

I think that's a big leap in judgment. When you review the literature you find that under certain conditions garlic has shown effects as an immune booster and has shown limited success in controlling (not curing) pathogens in fish. However, those results are highly dependent on the methodology used and just about as many studies have failed to find any notable effect. The question isn't whether garlic can kill pathogens, but whether garlic as it's used within the hobby can kill pathogens or improve health and that question is still very much up in the air.

[Sk8r]

All I've got is purely anecdotal: I had a rabbit develop an outbreak in my display. I was upset. I looked for anything---didn't find any garlic but that in my fridge. I crushed it, fed it straight, and the fish went for it---all my fish did---except, of course, the mandy. They ate raw garlic and wanted more.
Well, the ich dropped off---but the deal is---nobody else got it, the rabbit didn't get it again, went back to the lfs and got it again, but not in my tank. Never had it in my tank again. Natch, I have ich-resistant gobies and dragonet, but I also have a chromis and dartfish: no show there. Still don't have it after the move and re-setup.
So...if I see another outbreak ever, in spite of the fact I see no proof, I'll crush up another clove of garlic and hope it goes away overnight again, before pulling everybody to qt and doing what I ought to do. It may be a rabbitsfoot solution, but my fish are all alive and I have not seen ich in 2 years in spite of having a tang as a brief working guest---and that I consider is like putting a 'kick-me, Ich' sign on the tank. Definitely it's a rabbitsfoot, but one I'll try again, at least, if only to see if it duplicates.

[jman77]

"I think that's a big leap in judgment. When you review the literature you find that under certain conditions garlic has shown effects as an immune booster and has shown limited success in controlling (not curing) pathogens in fish. However, those results are highly dependent on the methodology used and just about as many studies have failed to find any notable effect. The question isn't whether garlic can kill pathogens, but whether garlic as it's used within the hobby can kill pathogens or improve health and that question is still very much up in the air."

As I stated before, studies have been done, and it's proven to do what you question. The biggest problem is that allicin is highly unstable see below ,


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allicin
"Allicin compound obtained from garlic that has demonstrated potent antibacterial and anti-fungal properties that protect garlic from pathogens [1][2]. Allicin is also the chemical constituent primarily responsible for the hot, burning flavor of fresh garlic.[citation needed]

Allicin is not present in garlic in its natural state. When garlic is chopped or otherwise damaged, the enzyme alliinase acts on the chemical alliin converting it into allicin.[3] Alliin is an amino acid that does not build proteins. Alliinase has been demonstrated to be irreversibly deactivated below a pH of 3; as such, allicin is generally not produced in the body from consumed fresh or powdered garlic.[4][5][6] In light of this, Allicin is considered to be of very limited value as an oral antibiotic due to poor bioavailability.[7]

Allicin is not a very stable compound. It degrades slowly upon standing and is rapidly destroyed by cooking. Allicin can be used for some medicinal purposes: it helps fighting arteriosclerosis, it has the ability to dissolve fats and it can also be used as an antioxidant to some extent.[8][9] Other studies have shown a strong oxidative effect in the gut that can damage intestinal cells [10],[11] Vasodilative effect of garlic in physiological oxygen levels is possibly caused by catabolism of its allicin-like polysulfides to hydrogen sulfide, a reaction which could depend on reduction mediated by glutathione.[12]"

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1782446
"Allicin, a major ingredient of fresh garlic extract that is produced during the crushing of garlic cloves, exerts various beneficial biological effects, including a broad spectrum of antimicrobial activity, antihyperlipidaemic and antihypertensive effects."

http://www.3dchem.com/molecules.asp?ID=156
"Being a strongly oxidising compound, it protects garlic from attack by bacteria and insects by disabling the enzymes that are found in the substrate necessary for infections to occur,"

http://www.foodengineeringmag.com/CD...00f932a8c0____
"Published articles had suggested that simply throwing cloves of garlic into the pond was helpful in promoting healthy stocks, and preliminary results from the application of allicin to fish bacteria in the lab are encouraging."


"#


http://www.fao.org/docrep/field/003/AC233E/AC233E06.htm
"Prevention with medicated feeds: during epidemic season of Grass carp enteritis, medicated feed is more helpful. Use 1–2 kg garlic per 100 kg of fish once a day for six consecutive days. Pulp and blend the garlic with fish feeds for feeding, preventive result would be better if 40g of table salt is added for every 5kg of food. For adult fish, mix the pulped garlic with some adhesive, and spread onto tender grass which can be applied after it is dry, or medicated feed may be given in pellet form."


http://www.geocities.com/shtinkythef...ses/garlic.htm
" Garlic has long been thought to ward off evils like vampires, disease, ect. While mostly unfounded, Garlic has many antibacterial and anti-parasitic properties, mostly derivative of its high sulfur content. It can be fed to fish nearly all fish, tropical and coldwater, freshwater, marine, and salt, to cure many parasitic infections, internal external. Internal parasites are inherently hard to treat, because of the difficulty in getting medicines into the intestines, where they occur. "


I'm suprised you being a marine bio , don't know about this.... and yea, you google skills are weak grasshopper....lol Again guys, the thing to remember is that is has to be freshly crushed or it's pretty much useless for what we are using it for.

[greenbean36191]

I'm suprised you being a marine bio , don't know about this.

I know about the claims you've posted so far. Very little of it has anything to do with the efficacy of garlic for treating marine fish parasites. It's yet to be shown that fish get a therapeutically beneficial dose of garlic/ allicin from feeding unconcentrated garlic extract. It also hasn't been shown how easily that allicin makes it into the fish's system after it's been injested. Furthermore the effect of the allicin on the fish parasites once it makes it into the fish's system is virtually unknown.

Determining that refined allicin kills bacteria in a petri dish is a long way from proving that feeding garlic to fish or soaking their food in the juice will cure them from of any disease.

[jman77]

The only quotes that I posted that talk about refined Allicin is this one

http://www.foodengineeringmag.com/C...000f932a8c0____
"Published articles had suggested that simply throwing cloves of garlic into the pond was helpful in promoting healthy stocks, and preliminary results from the application of allicin to fish bacteria in the lab are encouraging."


All the rest are about regular Garlic being used.

Here is another one.... btw they are talking about Jack Wattley...

http://www.animalcomp.com/archives/f...cusExpert.html

"To treat intestinal worms in discus, Wattley uses garlic. He experimented with garlic oils and powders from a health food store before determining that only fresh, pureed garlic works. He advocates putting it on the discus’ food. He uses almost a 50/50 ratio of garlic to food."

[greenbean36191]

The sources in the wikipedia article and the next two articles cited are based on in vitro work using either refined allicin or various preparations of garlic extract standardized for allicin. Not even the antimicrobial effect has been demonstrated when the garlic is administered orally in vivo. In fact, it can't even be detected in the blood when it's administered orally.

The rest of the quotes are anecdotal or vague mentions of what someone else claimed. We already have plenty of anecdotal evidence suggesting that garlic is an appetite stimulant, parasite treatment, or immune booster. The problem is that anecdote is notoriously unreliable. It's especially unreliable in the case of ich treatments because the parasite naturally drops off and often doesn't reinfect at visible levels again, even without treatment. There's lots of anecdotal evidence that shark cartilage prevents or treats cancer too- something that controlled tests just don't support.

We don't have any controlled tests confirming that feeding garlic in vivo actually confers the benefits people claim or that are seen in vitro. In fact we have evidence that the effects people see don't occur by the suggested mechanism. That certainly doesn't mean that garlic doesn't work, but it's far from a proven cure. A lot more work needs to be done.

[jman77]

controlled tests , hum , that sounds like something marine biologists do .... you up for the task bean

[m2434]

Sponges don't typically do well in reef tanks... Occasionally they may survive, but not often. Also, IMO the nicer they are, the less likely they are to survive.

In my first fish tank, my fish were acting weird and had what looked like little white spots (ich). I fed them garlic at first and they survived. I stopped feeding them garlic and they still survived. My second tank had the same problem, but I didn't feed them garlic and they survived.


I'm also quite skeptical that hobbyists are actually capable of diagnosis ich in the early stages...
Now I think the white spots might have been sand or bristleworm spikes and the fish just weird.

I think it's fairly well established that Allicin has SOME immune-stimulating effects in mice and rats.... for whatever that's worth. Any link to fish and ich however, is as greenbean36191 suggested, purely anecdotal. Doesn't mean it's not true, just means its a guess.