Doctoring up water for skimming

[dela]

A while ago, I treated my tank for dinos. Whatever I put in the tank caused the skimmer to go crazy and overflow. Ended up having to turn the thing off. I don't know that it was skimming any better so much as bubbling more.

It was really amazing how out of control the skimmer was. But it got me thinking. Perhaps there are substances that can be added in small quantities to improve a skimmer's ability to remove gunk out of the water.

Are there any non-toxic substances that can be added directly to the skimmer? Maybe they are even removed by the skimmer along with extra gunk in the water?

[Percula9]

Sorry but I don't think that will work.

[capn_hylinur]

what's the theory behind this happening---I ran the skimmer right through a red slime treatment --no problems with "it going crazy"

seriously--what causes skimmers to go crazy---I know what causes me to go crazy so you don't need to comment on that _duh

[David Grigor]

Well the most common talked about that can aid in skimming,

ozone, kalkwasser ( with or without vinegar ), and vodka/sugar dosing.

All of which would need to be carefully researched before trying of course......


The only thing I have come across to make the skimmer go nuts is when using 2 part epoxy to mount corals. I adjust the air intake down significantly for a few days then put it back to normal levels.

[bertoni]

Skimming isn't well understood, in my opinion. I don't know of any data to show that an additive can "improve" skimming, for some definition of improve. The carbon dosing (vinegar, vodka, sugar, etc) approach attempts to encourage bacterial growth, which the skimmer then removes. I guess this might be viewed as "improved" skimming.

[kevin2000]

As I recall skimer performance will improve with higher salinity .. if your running something less than std reef salinit you should consider increasing salinity.

[CapitalO]

Putting any sort of hydrophobic particulates in the water will increase a skimmers output (the surface of each bubble attracts hydrophobic stuff).

When a skimmer 'goes nuts' its probably taking out the hydrophobic stuff that was recently introduced, but not necessarily more of the stuff that it would normally take out (organics that the skimmer removes during normal conditions). So even though its producing more skimmate, most of the skimmate is probably the stuff that was just introduced. I could be wrong though, hard to say for sure.

As for the increased salinity being related to skimmer performance: That would make sense because the bubbles in salt water are smaller than that of fresh water (smaller bubbles = more surface area), I dont know why they're smaller though.... So higher salinity is probably related to higher performance... but it defeats the purpose of a skimmer, keeping a healthy tank. I would imagine you would have to increase the salinity quite a bit to see any difference.

[kevin2000]

Originally posted by CapitalO
As for the increased salinity being related to skimmer performance: That would make sense because the bubbles in salt water are smaller than that of fresh water (smaller bubbles = more surface area), I dont know why they're smaller though

I suspect its a density issue. Heavier water creates smaller bubbles.

[bertoni]

From this article:

http://web.archive.org/web/200103090...skimmers2.html

It is not that bubbles form more readily in salt water. In fact, in highly purified salt water (no organics at all) the surface tension is greater than in pure water, and bubbles will be harder to make. Any "evidence" that bubbles form more readily in salt water is due to organics present. remember, only 0.002 g of an amphipathic molecule would be sufficient to completely cover a large aquarium. Thus, only a tiny bit of contaminating organic can make salt water appear to form bubbles readily. One of the main reasons for better skimming in salt water is actually the reduced solubility of organics, especially hydrophobic ones. Since organics are typically less soluble in salt water, they are more easily squeezed out of it to an air/water interface, and collected as foam. This is the basis for the well known salting out effect of proteins. Quoting from a basic biochemistry text: "At sufficiently high ionic strength a protein may be almost completely precipitated from solution, an effect called salting-out." It is not impossible, however, to skim fresh water. Rivers from certain areas of the northeast US often have foam on them which comes from tree sap and other natural things that enter the water. They have a low solubility in water, and are easily collected as a foam. Other organics, with some solubility in fresh water, just have less attraction for the air water interface, and are consequently harder to skim.

[isjg]

You can buy skimmer aid solutions. I don't know what's in them but I tried one once and it made it bubble better, smaller and longer lasting. Acted pretty much instantly. I would expect you'd get the same sort of result from putting in a drop of detergent, ie it may just be some sort of surfactant.

[kysard1]

Originally posted by kevin2000
I suspect its a density issue. Heavier water creates smaller bubbles.

Surface tension determines bubble size.

[Rickyrooz1]

When I use Tropic Marin's Pro-Tect it makes my skimmer go crazy too. I have to add a half dose so it doesn't overflow the skimmer.

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by CapitalO
Putting any sort of hydrophobic particulates in the water will increase a skimmers output (the surface of each bubble attracts hydrophobic stuff).

When a skimmer 'goes nuts' its probably taking out the hydrophobic stuff that was recently introduced, but not necessarily more of the stuff that it would normally take out (organics that the skimmer removes during normal conditions). So even though its producing more skimmate, most of the skimmate is probably the stuff that was just introduced. I could be wrong though, hard to say for sure.

As for the increased salinity being related to skimmer performance: That would make sense because the bubbles in salt water are smaller than that of fresh water (smaller bubbles = more surface area), I dont know why they're smaller though.... So higher salinity is probably related to higher performance... but it defeats the purpose of a skimmer, keeping a healthy tank. I would imagine you would have to increase the salinity quite a bit to see any difference.

IMO--you and JB are saying the same thing---and they both are right on the mark for explaining why skimmers react for when chemicals like Red Slimer remover are used

I would guess the kiss explanation is an increase in organics in the water column??

[CapitalO]

Were basically saying the same thing, my logic was a bit off but the conclusion was the same for practical purposes.

The whole thing about the solubility of organics in salt water totally makes sense in explaining why its easier to skim stuff out of salt water. I'm having trouble understanding why this decreases the surface tension though... I might do some research on it this weekend.

[dela]

You can buy skimmer aid solutions. I don't know what's in them but I tried one once and it made it bubble better, smaller and longer lasting. Acted pretty much instantly. I would expect you'd get the same sort of result from putting in a drop of detergent, ie it may just be some sort of surfactant.

I found the product I used for dinos.. it was called maracyn. Adding this product was similar to adding soap in terms of how the skimmer acted.

I didn't know you can buy skimmer aids.

Are there "safe" surfactants? I guess there are if you can buy skimmer aids. Certainly you would not want to use any kind of commercial soap. But I guess if you diluted some kind of a "safe" surfactant and used a dosing pump to feed a skimmer, then perhaps greater skimmer efficiency could be achieved assuming it actually improved removal of substances and that the sufactant would be removed by the skimmer... although 100% removal would of course be impossible, and the surfactant would slowly build up.

Also, I seem to recall something about animal respiration issues due to the product. Like somehow it lowered oxygen levels.

Anyhow, I personally don't intend to try this, but it's kind of an interesting concept. And I actually do try and feed my kalk water make-up into the skimmer. Didn't know about the ozone.