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#101
01/08/2008, 04:31 PM
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IMO, my livestock is probably worth $5k [now that it's grown out].
Why do I want to save $50 for an unknown manufacturer vs. from one of the best companies I've dealt with .... and possibly risk my reef? It may be a low risk ... but having heard enough Rio stories - it is a risk. To me, it's not worth risking all that investment [$$, time, care] for a couple hours of wages. Nevermind the copyright questions, the customer service [if they can match Roger, they'll be one of the best places I've dealt with in the hobby] .... for my $50, I'll avoid any risk and go with Tunze. [it would have to be a LOT cheaper to give up great CS, quality, innovation, and quality] JMO 
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read a lot, think for yourself |
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#102
01/08/2008, 04:56 PM
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As a patent attorney who also has a degree in Economics I'd like to set a few things straight here (with the disclaimer of course that this is NOT legal advice, but merely my observations in this situation) . There is a lot of mis-information floating around in this thread and people are getting very worked up over nothing.
Facts: 1) Copyrights don't protect products (in patent terms apparatuses) or the functioning of those products. They can protect the visual appearance to an extent, but that really doesnt do much unless you've got a pretty exact copy. All the talk of copyright seems to be confusing copyrights with patents, which do protect products and functions. 2) As far as I can tell, Tunze has no patents in force in the US (unless they are owned by some larger company that the patents are assigned to, but this doesnt appear the case). Unlike copyright law, which can provide some protections just because you created a work, patents are only granted when you apply and are granted a patent by the US Patent and Trademark Office. 3) The American economy is fundamentally built upon capitalism and to argue that the US and Europe should be able to compete, but the rest of the world should not, takes a small view of the world. My opinoin: I have Tunze products and am willing to pay a bit more for their good support. However, if someone makes the same product for less, they should. Tunze does not appear to have any protection for their IP, and thus has no complaint if they are copied. There will be some customers willing to pay more for support and some that wont. If the Chinese make the same or better product, then that pushes Tunze to make an even better product. This is the foundation of our capitalistic society, and IMO there is no reason the rest of the world shouldnt able to compete.
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118g SPS/LPS semi-circle : 190 lbs LR, 30g ADHI Sump, Mag 9.5 return, Tunze 9010 skimmer, Phosban Reactor, 4 Tunze Nanostreams Modded, retros: 400w MH + 4x39w 36" T5 |
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#103
01/08/2008, 06:15 PM
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The thing in business is that most idea will get "rip off" down the road. What you hope for is that if you choose to be fist mover your lead will be ahead enough to make more money (as such being a leader might allow you to charge more for the product because of 'image'). You can be a follower but you better make sure your product is better or cheaper than the original otherwise no one will buy you...
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#104
01/08/2008, 06:16 PM
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mcliffy2 thank you for this information.
seeing you do patent work you would be the one to know all the ways to find out if there is an existing patent in the united states. thanks for clearing up the grey areas about the tunzee pumps. i have never seen any patent stamps or patent pending numbers on the tunzes so i figured they were not a patented product. on a side note i heard from a person that wanted to use some tunze streams in a public reef tank. tunze refuses to have there products ULtested/ listed. so that ruins it so no public aquariums can use these pumps in there tanks. its sad to see that a company that has such a good reputation wouldnt want to increase that reputation by having there products tested by underwriters labrotories. if the company that makes the x flow pumps had thethere pumps tested and thenhad the UL liisted sticker on them i would buy that pump before i would buy the tunze stream. in my mind this is the big problem with our hobby. most equiptment is not tested by independent testing companies to insure they are not fire hazzards or that there is not a problem with that product.
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a wise man once told me.... " there is no right way to build a reef tank but there is alot of wrong ways to build a reef tank". |
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#106
01/08/2008, 07:15 PM
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Thanks for the legal info, mcliffy.
One of the big strengths IMO of this place is what you just provided, expertise is just about every field. Thanks for sharing yours.
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read a lot, think for yourself Last edited by MiddletonMark; 01/08/2008 at 07:31 PM. |
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#107
01/08/2008, 08:54 PM
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Roger Vitko told me the patents on the streams expired a few years ago, so, anyone can clone them as much as they want now. Also, Tunze's not worried about this product at all...
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You become responsible, Forever, for what you have tamed. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery |
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#108
01/08/2008, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
www.google.com/patents is my personal favorite. I still double check and search at uspto.gov however to cover my bases. All you'll find for Tunze is some patents from the 70s and 80s that have long expired.
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118g SPS/LPS semi-circle : 190 lbs LR, 30g ADHI Sump, Mag 9.5 return, Tunze 9010 skimmer, Phosban Reactor, 4 Tunze Nanostreams Modded, retros: 400w MH + 4x39w 36" T5 |
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#109
01/08/2008, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
 An attorney should evaluate any individual case first as there can be subtle differences that make a big legal difference (forgot that part of my disclaimer )
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118g SPS/LPS semi-circle : 190 lbs LR, 30g ADHI Sump, Mag 9.5 return, Tunze 9010 skimmer, Phosban Reactor, 4 Tunze Nanostreams Modded, retros: 400w MH + 4x39w 36" T5 |
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#110
01/08/2008, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
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118g SPS/LPS semi-circle : 190 lbs LR, 30g ADHI Sump, Mag 9.5 return, Tunze 9010 skimmer, Phosban Reactor, 4 Tunze Nanostreams Modded, retros: 400w MH + 4x39w 36" T5 |
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#111
01/08/2008, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
It really is validation for Tunzes technology and pricing. I would be P*SS*D if I were told this was compatible with a 7095 and it wasn't. That, and raising the prices by 25% aren't exactly the way to endear yourself to potential customers. 
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When life hands you lemons ... add vodka! Growing old is mandatory. Growing up is optional. Closed minds should come with closed mouths. |
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#114
01/09/2008, 09:27 PM
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PA is 239.00
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Sam |
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#115
01/09/2008, 09:48 PM
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Heat testing update
I placed the xwave in a 5 gallon bucket for 24 hrs the outside air temp was 75. After 24 hrs running the xwave in the bucket the water temp was 75.7 I did the same with my tunze 6100 and the water temp after 24hrs was 75.8 So the both did good |
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#117
01/09/2008, 11:53 PM
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Tunze won't reduce their price, especially since the x-wave has taken a price increase now.
PCI's customer service is non-existence. They told a friend of mine that his skimmer pump burning out was his fault..yeah, like he really wanted the pump to burn up and kill his tank! They didn't even want to see the pump or have him send it in-they were just not ineterested. Having said that, I do hope that the x-waves work out well. Even at $50, if they do prove to be a viable option, it may make a difference for some people. I am with the others with that little of a difference It's just not worth it. Btw, I hate Chinese products. I try my hardest to buy products made in Japan, EU and USA. China has no quality control whatsoever (US's fault by not enforcing it)
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"Without struggle, we can have no progress" - Frederick Douglass |
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#119
01/10/2008, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
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Linear Mode
