Building Big Bertha: 800G

[djian]

Ben, After seeing your house today. My opinon would be to have a false wall in the front that you can remove. It will make life so much easier to have the ability to get to the tank from the front. Just a simple thing as auqascaping will be dramaticly easier from the front. Coral placement will also be easier and less frustrating.

Flow: Make life easier on yourself and decide what corals you are keeping first. We never discuss this so I am unsure. But if you go stonie, you will want massive flow. 30-50x would be sufficiant. Powerheads are great, but you will get sick of looking at them. I recomend ocean motion on a closed loop. That will give you great random flow.

[bbrantley]

Originally posted by djian
Ben, After seeing your house today. My opinon would be to have a false wall in the front that you can remove. It will make life so much easier to have the ability to get to the tank from the front. Just a simple thing as auqascaping will be dramaticly easier from the front. Coral placement will also be easier and less frustrating.

Hey Ian,

Thanks for coming by and for your thoughts. I'm mostly interested in not having the false front because I can't figure out a way to make it look seamless, like a plain, white, drywall. I imagine if I had a lot of decorative stuff on my walls it would be easier to make it "fit in." I also have to deal with sound-proofing it and waterproofing it, though those could certainly be done.

One thing to keep in mind is that the greater depth a tank like this provides means that, naturally, I'll be putting the "decor" farther back from the front. I actually think more of the aquascaping will have to be done from the back than the front simply because I won't be able to stand at the front panel and reach very far back! I don't have a good plan (or even a vision of a plan) for how best to lay it out yet, but I suspect this will often be the case.

Have you checked out oregonreef.com? This is one example of a very similarly-sized tank where there is no front access, and he thinks it works out fine. I think his motive was also aesthetic -- no holes in the front wall, in other words.

Finally, there is a structural concern that will prevent me from making much open space above the tank anyway, and this is because that wall is load-bearing. It has to have something like a 12-inch header placed above the tank to handle the load from the loft above, and that would reduce my working space to about 96 - 32 - 30 - 12 = ... 22 inches. Not impossible to work in, but not spacious, either.

I'm keeping an open mind, but I'm actually more confident about this than I am about the second point you raised, which was...

Flow: Make life easier on yourself and decide what corals you are keeping first. We never discuss this so I am unsure. But if you go stonie, you will want massive flow. 30-50x would be sufficiant. Powerheads are great, but you will get sick of looking at them. I recomend ocean motion on a closed loop. That will give you great random flow.

I'll definitely keep stonies and softies, so flow will be important. I'm concerned that the closed loops offer several disadvantages:

1. Higher power consumption per unit flow
2. More points of failure (holes in tank, plumbing)
3. One mechanical single point-of-failure (one pump vs many powerheads)
4. Lower flexibility once installed

I think my biggest fear is probably just psychological: I don't have a good instinct for where flow should come from, so I can't design for it in terms of holes in the tank. It seems "risky" to me to try to guess up front. I like the idea of being able to experiment and move things around.

The Vortech pumps really cut down on the visual distractions in the tank. I actually think a really good tank draws the eye away from the pumps anyway, so I'm not that worried about perfection here. But I really like the idea of high-efficiency, modular, movable flow. (I don't like that they don't have a solution for 1-inch acrylic yet, and they also don't have a way to put the things at any angle but 90.)

My mind's not made up, though, so feel free to keep the thoughts coming.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Ben

[djian]

Ben, you should try to make it to next months meeting at Steve's(vikebron) house. He has a massive tank that may give you ideas on what you'll want to do with yours.

[bbrantley]

Originally posted by djian
Ben, you should try to make it to next months meeting at Steve's(vikebron) house. He has a massive tank that may give you ideas on what you'll want to do with yours.

Whoa, cool! I definitely would like to make it up there. Steve sold me a bunch of southdown for my current tank, though I doubt he knew who I was or even remembers me. I searched back and couldn't find any threads with pics or anything about his latest tank... is there such a beast?

[bbrantley]

For today's update, I've had several contractors come out and assess the structural parts of the project. A number of them have been surprisingly naive and unknowledgable, but a few have really stood out. It is down to waiting for estimates and learning how much of the devil really is in the details.

One point that came up that I hadn't thought about is my two windows in the fish room. I want to keep those windows, and they are low-E double-paned glass, but it was mentioned that it's likely we'll see condensation on them. If the water content in the room air is high enough and the temperature differential between the room and the outside is also high enough (easily possible in the wintertime) then those things may get super wet! I'm not sure how to deal with this besides adopting a "wait-and-see" approach... maybe the ventilation will keep the humidity low enough, and maybe the room will avoid freezing. If not, an HRV retrofit may be required.

Ben

[djian]

He had pics up a few months ago, but theyre long gone.

I would think a properly sized dehumidifier would benifit this concern of condensation.

I was thinking that the radiant heat would warm the tank and espeacially the sump. Heat may become a real issue in the winter. I guess you could just open the window in that case.

[bbrantley]

Hey Ian,

I would think a properly sized dehumidifier would benifit this concern of condensation.

Yeah, I think that would work, too, but have you seen the power requirements for those things? They're super energy hogs.

I was thinking that the radiant heat would warm the tank and espeacially the sump. Heat may become a real issue in the winter. I guess you could just open the window in that case.

The saving grace with the radiant floor heat is that there is a separate "zone" for that room, so I can control it independent of the rest of the main floor of the house. I actually kind of want it to be too warm so I can have more opportunities to vent/exchange the air with the outside more frequently, thus reducing the inside humidity, thus reducing the opportunity for condensation.

It may all just work out perfect, or it may be a real bear. I have little intuition for it, so I think it will truly be a "wait and see" deal.

[Ridgeline]

Looks like its going to be a clean install

[ajl10spro]

Just a thought, for reaching further a pool extension poll would work well.

[prostaff]

Originally posted by bbrantley
Okay, I have a couple of "big tank" questions, or maybe they should really be called "deep tank" questions:

1. Are there any super-long gloves that actually work? I have the long purple-and-orange ones you can buy from the various internet fish stores, and they sorta work... but they're not quite long enough to really go up and cover the whole shoulder and let you get to those bottom few inches of the tank. I've looked and looked for gloves that might be a few inches longer, perhaps with some kind of strap, instead of elastic, to hold them up high on the body. No dice. Any ideas?

2. I use a magnetic scraper on my 3/4" acrylic today and it's good for 90% of the surface area. The very bottom and very top of the tank don't work well, though, so I use Kent scrapes of various lengths to do those. The problem is that the Kent rods that make the scrapers long are so flimsy... you have to bend 'em to get enough torque to scrape down low, and then the handle is so small that it gets tiring and hard to control. I'm thinking there should be a scraper built onto the end of a much longer, more rigid plastic handle with a serious hand grip on the end... something more like the thickness of those squeegees you use at the gas station to clean your car windows. Has anyone found something like this that works well? If not, perhaps I will have to try concocting a super-scraper out of one. I'm thinking this is going to be even more important when Bertha is built and I have to scrape from 4 or 5 feet away sometimes.

Ben

I have 2 large tanks 1000g and 700gals connected together and I use the extra long tongs ($25) to get to almost anything. Tanks are 30in and 40in deep. I mean once you set up the rock work which I did with almost no water in it, you only ever have to pick up fallen frags or a dead animal.
As for question #2, I had a friend build me a credit card holder which attaches to my magnetic cleaner and this works quite well so I don't have to scape too often. It is essentially an adaptation of the mag float scraper. Hope that helps

[bbrantley]

Originally posted by ajl10spro
Just a thought, for reaching further a pool extension poll would work well.

Yeah, I think I need about 6 feet of pole to give me enough length to apply the necessary torque. Any longer and it's going to be unwieldy given the limited distance between top of tank and ceiling.

Ben

[bbrantley]

Originally posted by prostaff
I have 2 large tanks 1000g and 700gals connected together and I use the extra long tongs ($25) to get to almost anything. Tanks are 30in and 40in deep. I mean once you set up the rock work which I did with almost no water in it, you only ever have to pick up fallen frags or a dead animal.
As for question #2, I had a friend build me a credit card holder which attaches to my magnetic cleaner and this works quite well so I don't have to scape too often. It is essentially an adaptation of the mag float scraper. Hope that helps

I agree with you on #1; I hope to minimize the need to get in there after a while. However, I'm still finding the need to get to the sand on my 225 today, so I'm sure Murphy's Law will keep me "diving" for a long time to come.

As for the credit card attached to the mag cleaner, that's a fantastic idea -- do you have a pic or can you describe how that works? Is it off at an angle from the edge of the scraping part? My scraper is made of what looks like the hook part of Velcro... not strong enough to scrape the really tough stuff.

Ben

[bbrantley]

Update:

Project is a go, and even the wife approves. (Wowzers!)

Contractor estimates 14 working days to get all the structural and finish work done... I think he's smoking it, but it's a fixed bid so we'll see what happens. He's also a good guy, and I work from home, so there will be plenty of oversight.

First life support gadget--er, component, ordered: Bubble King 500 external.

The next steps are going to be tricky as I will be traveling for 15 of the next 15 business days:

1. Obtain a big stock tank and transfer the 225G's live rock, handful of frags, and one lonely lawnmower blenny. The coral frags may not make it; I'll have to rig up some lighting for them and see how they do.

2. Tear down the rest of the 225G and get it out of the way.

3. Building permit application.

4. Move out of our master bed/bathroom so the ceiling can be torn out down there for the bearing beam reinforcement.

The construction is scheduled to start August 14 or so. Should be a true Adventure.

Ben

[Steven M]

Sounds like you have a good plain for the project. You did not mention the painting of the walls, you mentioned vapor barrier. It was recommended to me when I set up my tank to paint the wall with exterior paint to keep the moister out of the drywall.

[jnarowe]

I used yacht bilge paint on the walls and ceiling of my in-wall 1000g display and I am very happy with it. I also use 3 fans to keep my tank cool. 2 draw from under the tank and blow across the top between the water and the halides. 1 draws from ceiling height at the other end of the tank and exhausts outside. Makeup air is an open attic style vent in the tank room wall that is under my deck. We are having a heat wave right now and my tank maxed at 81.9F yesterday with ambient temp. at 96F. The fans are 6".

You can see pictures of my install in my pics garage at http://home.wavecable.com/~jrowe/index.htm. PM with any questions!

[serenity]

Originally posted by bbrantley
Update:

Project is a go, and even the wife approves. (Wowzers!)


First life support gadget--er, component, ordered: Bubble King 500 external.

Ben

First congrats on the wife ..

BK 500 wow that thing has to be HUGE, I saw one on Aquarium Specialty's site and that thing is HUGE.. Please post photo when it arrives. Keep up the killer work!

p.s. Maybe your wife can call my wife and I can get a BK ..

[bbrantley]

Hi all,

I was on the road this last week working like a dog, so I had no time to post updates -- or do much else, really. Anyway, let me follow up with some updates and some responses to the kind comments you've added this week. First, the updates:

I signed the contract with my contractor to do all the construction -- and there is a lot of it, like $20,000 worth. I'll take pictures throughout when we start on Monday the 14th.

The BK500 from Aquarium Specialty is sitting in Denver ready to be delivered by freight. Alas, I am going on vacation this week and so it will be postponed to next week.

I ordered a Generac QuietSource generator for the house (okay, for the tank ) to be delivered shortly. It's 16KW and should be reasonably quiet as well. All the circuits for the tank will be routed through its transfer switch, as well as my well pump, kitchen appliances, and maybe even a light bulb or two. I've been wanting one of these for the house anyway (we live in the middle of no where and the day we have a heavy snowstorm and lose power we will be stuck, literally...), so this was a good excuse. The generator detects outages (we have short ones frequently throughout the summer) and spins up about 60 seconds later to deliver power. I will hook it up to my 500-gallon propane tank (which normally just fuels the furnace) and I should get a good 4 or 5 days of runtime on an average (250-gallon) fill with it running at peak load.

I also got in my sample of Sani-Tred liquid rubber, which I am experimenting with on some metal (thinking of coating the stand in it) and some plywood (for use to make the rubber floor). I finished the third coat tonight and so I'll see what it looks like when I get back next weekend!

I purchased a large stock tank to use to hold all my existing live rock (and a few pieces of coral and my one, lonely blenny) while the construction goes on. I'll pump everything over to it next weekend and drag the rock out.

Speaking of that tank, the topoff sensor failed on last week and slowly dripped the entire topoff container into my bamboo floor.... ruining it. I will take some pictures of the parts I cut into to try to save my subfloor and get things dried out faster. So we will be replacing the living room floor as part of this project as well. (I kinda wanted to replace the floor, too, so I guess it's just as well. Still -- use redundant sensors or install a waterproof room. Lesson learned.)

Now for your comments:

Sounds like you have a good plain for the project. You did not mention the painting of the walls, you mentioned vapor barrier. It was recommended to me when I set up my tank to paint the wall with exterior paint to keep the moister out of the drywall.

Hi Steven, yeah, my contractor has talked me out of redoing the drywall. We think a serious waterproof paint will do the job just fine. The floor will still be a rubber "bathtub" with a 3 or 4 inch curve up the sides of the walls. I will evaluate seepage into the drywall over the course of a year or so by leaving access to a piece of it from the other side of one of the interior walls. If it looks like a problem at that point we'll have to go to a fallback plan.

I used yacht bilge paint on the walls and ceiling of my in-wall 1000g display and I am very happy with it. I also use 3 fans to keep my tank cool. 2 draw from under the tank and blow across the top between the water and the halides. 1 draws from ceiling height at the other end of the tank and exhausts outside. Makeup air is an open attic style vent in the tank room wall that is under my deck. We are having a heat wave right now and my tank maxed at 81.9F yesterday with ambient temp. at 96F. The fans are 6".

Jonathan, thanks for the comments. I have read your thread all the way through and really enjoy all your creative "solutions," including the square skimmer. I will definitely PM you in the future and maybe try to give you a ring. Perhaps I should just take a tour of the northwest and visit all the huge tanks that seem to be up there? Anyway, my biggest concern is noise, so I have to work carefully to get good fans. By the way, my wife suffered two strokes this year, so I am sympathetic. She has different deficits than the ones I've seen you describe, but she is a trooper and hopefully will rebound given time and patience. And lots of therapy and hard work.

First congrats on the wife ..

BK 500 wow that thing has to be HUGE, I saw one on Aquarium Specialty's site and that thing is HUGE.. Please post photo when it arrives. Keep up the killer work!

p.s. Maybe your wife can call my wife and I can get a BK ..

Thank you, she is truly a blessing. The BK500 will definitely merit some pictures; I'm a photographer by hobby, so you'll see a lot of shots once I get going and have interesting things to shoot. I'm wary of the wife-to-wife chat just on the off chance that it backfires and YOUR wife convinces MINE that my idea sucks. Ha, ha!


Ben

[jnarowe]

Jonathan, thanks for the comments. I have read your thread all the way through and really enjoy all your creative "solutions," including the square skimmer. I will definitely PM you in the future and maybe try to give you a ring. Perhaps I should just take a tour of the northwest and visit all the huge tanks that seem to be up there? Anyway, my biggest concern is noise, so I have to work carefully to get good fans. By the way, my wife suffered two strokes this year, so I am sympathetic. She has different deficits than the ones I've seen you describe, but she is a trooper and hopefully will rebound given time and patience. And lots of therapy and hard work.

Plenty of cool tanks to see in the NW. Come on by! I'd like to go and see oregonreef in person too. My tank blower fans are extremely quiet and would work well for you. I cannot hear anything in my viewing room unless my ear is up to the glass. I guess there is a slight hum but nothing really noticeable. Keep in mind that sound travels through solid material so in order to get good soundproofing, you have to interupt the solids...I'll explain via PM or phone call. Sound will also readily travel through your household heating system so it is best to completely seal any vents in the tank room.

Strokes are tough because often the victim doesn't look injured, and so it becomes very frustrating to deal with people. No one really knows what is happening inside a stroke victim's head and every case is unique. To be honest, I have been lucky. Many are not.

[serenity]

Originally posted by bbrantley
Thank you, she is truly a blessing. The BK500 will definitely merit some pictures; I'm a photographer by hobby, so you'll see a lot of shots once I get going and have interesting things to shoot. I'm wary of the wife-to-wife chat just on the off chance that it backfires and YOUR wife convinces MINE that my idea sucks. Ha, ha!


Ben

Haha.. Very true Ben, I look forward to watching this thread grow with photo's. Best of luck and sorry to hear about the floor .

Keep up the great ideas.

ser

[H20ENG]

Hi Ben,
Glad to hear of the progress

-Sanitred is good stuff!

-Whenever possible, I try to install a standpipe in the sump itself, as a last ditch effort to save the floor in cases like this. I also use dual floats, but Murphy can really kick your butt sometimes...

-I'm sure whoever installs the generator will check this, but be sure to adjust the carburetion for your altitude. (actually this goes for any fuel burning appliance too) When the power goes out is not the time to be trying to get it running right!

Just thought I'd mention it,
Chris

[JCURRY@WESKETCH]

I would reconsider your idea about replacing the drywall at a later date when there is a problem. By the time you see mold on the face of drywall the problem is way beyond serious. Consider using a product like DensArmor® Plus which is a paperless drywall or even concrete board such as Dur-o-Rock and skimcoat it with lime plaster. Mold is nothing to screw around with and will lead to some serious health issues if ignored. Just my .02

[alien9168]

[bbrantley]

Hi all,

I'm back from a wonderful week in Maui. No diving this time, as the wife is still recovering, but I we did get some fun snorkeling in! I wanted to follow up on your latest comments and suggestions:

-Sanitred is good stuff!

-Whenever possible, I try to install a standpipe in the sump itself, as a last ditch effort to save the floor in cases like this. I also use dual floats, but Murphy can really kick your butt sometimes...

-I'm sure whoever installs the generator will check this, but be sure to adjust the carburetion for your altitude. (actually this goes for any fuel burning appliance too) When the power goes out is not the time to be trying to get it running right!

Just thought I'd mention it,
Chris

Chris, I'm very impressed with Sanitred as well. Now I need to call and place the "real" order.

A standpipe in the sump would have be fantastic. Or if my bathtub floor hadn't leaked, that would have worked. Or if I had installed redundant topoff sensors. In the new fish room, the entire floor will be waterproof with a central, and this functionality is part of the contract for the construction work, to boot. You can bet I'll be simulating some serious floods before any saltwater goes in any acrylic boxes in that room!

As for the generator, yes, I have already inquired as the necessary instructions for tuning the engine. Fortunately, I will be testing it thoroughly in the first few weeks as we get the circuits installed/moved over and I verify that it can handle the rated load. Interestingly, they have told me this unit will de-rate only 3 to 5% for my altitude... I presume this is because the fuel is being burned in a compressed setting anyway, unlike a boiler or hot water heater where it's just a flame.

would reconsider your idea about replacing the drywall at a later date when there is a problem. By the time you see mold on the face of drywall the problem is way beyond serious. Consider using a product like DensArmor� Plus which is a paperless drywall or even concrete board such as Dur-o-Rock and skimcoat it with lime plaster. Mold is nothing to screw around with and will lead to some serious health issues if ignored.

JCurry, thanks for your words of warning. I, too, originally specified something close to what you describe for the room. However, I have had a few conversations with some HVAC and indoor-pool specialists, and they have made me feel pretty comfortable about it. One thing that I think mitigates a lot of the mold concern here is that I will be venting cool, dry air continuously as needed in the room. Hopefully this approach will prevent moisture from accumulating. Low moisture means no water damage and no mold. (Fingers crossed!)

Welp, one more week of slave labor--er, work, and then I'll be home to take pictures of the skimmer and the start of the demolition.

Thanks for all the comments.

[AquariumSpecialty]

Ben, Have you looking into a Humidex? I'm considering one. I've spoken to the manufacturer a couple of times but it would be nice to hear if you or anyone else has experience with these units...

[bbrantley]

Originally posted by AquariumSpecialty
Ben, Have you looking into a Humidex? I'm considering one. I've spoken to the manufacturer a couple of times but it would be nice to hear if you or anyone else has experience with these units...

Hi Scott,

I've no experience with it, but I'm planning on installing something very similar, if not the actual device made by that company. My room will have two 6" ports to the outside -- one for outbound moist air and one for inbound dry air. I will have fans on both ports and will connect them to a humidistat for activation when the moisture in the air in the fish room rises above the desired level. I need a dual-ported approach because the room is essentially air-tight otherwise.

The hardest thing about my vents, interestingly, is that I will need a way to electronically control the louvres on the outside -- they will be on a wind-facing wall and we get very strong winds here in the wintertime... most walls have to be rated for over 120mph of wind load.

Ben