clam X prefers sand is bunk!

[mbbuna]

page 3 is mine

[Konadog]

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[ezcompany]

eh, i think we need to find common ground on the definition of domestication first. kalkbreath, can you make things easier for us and define the word in one sentence

[mbbuna]

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication

Degrees of domestication
The boundaries between surviving wild populations and domestic clades of elephants, for example, can become vague. This is due to their slow growth. Similar problems of definition arise when, for example, domesticated cats go feral. A classification system that can help solve this confusion might be set up on a spectrum of increasing domestication:

Wild: These species experience their full life cycles without deliberate human intervention.

Raised at zoos or botanical gardens (captive): These species are nurtured and sometimes bred under human control, but remain as a group essentially indistinguishable in appearance or behaviour from their wild counterparts. (It should be noted that zoos and botanical gardens sometimes exhibit domesticated or feral animals and plants such as camels, mustangs, and some orchids.)

Raised commercially (captive or semidomesticated): These species are ranched or farmed in large numbers for food, commodities, or the pet trade, but as a group they are not substantially altered in appearance or behavior. Examples include the elephant, ostrich, deer, alligator, cricket, pearl oyster, and ball python. (These species are sometimes referred to as partially domesticated.)

.Domesticated: These species or varieties are bred and raised under human control for many generations and are substantially altered as a group in appearance or behaviour. Examples include the Canary, Pigeons, the Budgerigar, the peach-faced Lovebird, dogs, cats, sheep, cattle, chickens, llamas, guinea pigs and laboratory mice.

This classification system does not account for several complicating factors: genetically modified organisms, feral populations, and hybridization. Many species that are farmed or ranched are now being genetically modified. This creates a unique category because it alters the organisms as a group but in ways unlike traditional domestication. Feral organisms are members of a population that was once raised under human control, but is now living and multiplying outside of human control. Examples include mustangs. Hybrids can be wild, domesticated, or both: a liger is a hybrid of two wild animals, a mule is a hybrid of two domesticated animals, and a beefalo is a cross between a wild and a domestic animal.

[Kalkbreath]

Here in lies the problem:

There is debate within the scientific community over how the process of domestication works. Some researchers give credit to natural selection, where mutations outside of human control make some members of a species more compatible to human cultivation or companionship. Others have shown that carefully controlled selective breeding is responsible for many of the collective changes associated with domestication. These categories are not mutually exclusive and it is likely that natural selection and selective breeding have both played some role in the processes of domestication throughout history

There is no meaning.... only useage.
While I might agree that currently farmed clams might fall under a semi or partially domesticated category.
But :
I would place many coral farm's products (like ORA ) and tank raised corals and fish in a equal standing as most domesticated house plants and many of the crops currently bestowed a domestic title.

[mbbuna]

that's why the term cultured is a better fit. these clams haven't been cultured for very long, and there identical to there wild counterparts. when the clam farms are able to take two B&W maximas and get all the young produced from them to be B&W's then maybe i could see it as you do. when the farms can consistently produce Maxerasa's(trademarked by me )then maybe i can see it as you do.

going back to the root word "Domestic"-existing or occurring inside a country, not foreign or international, refering to home. AFIK no one is breading clams in the states and certainly no home aquarist are doing it. dogs, cats, pigs, goats are all easily breed at home by farmer Joe and have been for hundreds or thousands of years. clams where first cultured what 40 years ago?

[Kalkbreath]

But "cultured" is an even less effective terminology.


A person can cultivate all his life and never arrive with a product thats a successfully domesticated species. no better suited for the consumer then the the aboriginal.
Domestication is about results. not how many times you rammed your hoe into the dirt.
You can cultivate pine trees. the result is a pine tree just like in the wild. But you can also cultivate the same tree as a Bonsai tree and the result is contrastingly different.

To domesticate, your cultivation must in some way alter the product whilst preparing it for a domestic lifestyle.

You can culture out in the ocean right on the reef. but that yield a product not really much different then the wild one growing next to the table or cage.
You can also culture in a completely captive environment indoors using completely domestic conditions. (Aquarium cultured)

Do we call both lifefroms a cultured product? ..paying no mind as to which product would be more adjusted to living in our domestic dwelling?

We could simply round up Ferrel dogs to sell as pets if this is the case. If the conditions a product is raised plays not into the mind of a consumer... then simply release the puppies into the wild and let mother nature raise them.(its cheaper) then round them up with nets and off to the pet store for sale = cultured domestic Puppies!
Maybe dogs are not the best analogy.

Crops?
There are countless varieties of domesticated wheat , but how many will grow indoors in a domestic dwelling?

What do we call something which is cultivated to be happy growing indoors?

House plants!
There are countless domestic cultivations of what we term "house plants". Many earning that domesticated title simply because the cultivated varieties thrive indoors due to selecting those plants with the ability to survive in less intense artificial lighting.
Selecting clams and corals which are more colorful , thrive under less intense light and reduced water flow, seems to me to be a parallel
form of domestication as is the case with houseplants.

Maybe" House clams" will work? (wink)

[ezcompany]

Originally posted by mbbuna
AFIK no one is breading clams in the states and certainly no home aquarist are doing it. dogs, cats, pigs, goats are all easily breed at home by farmer Joe and have been for hundreds or thousands of years. clams where first cultured what 40 years ago?

i think Long John Silvers bread clam

[mbbuna]

in 40 years there haven't been any noticeable differences between cultured clams and wild ones. maybe some day there will and the term domesticated might be appropriate then.

you also have to remember that when clams were first cultured, the intention wasn't to do it to sell them to people to stick in glass box's. it started because they wanted to try to save certain species from extinction and to replenish the reefs. selling them as ornamentals was an after thought.

40 years of limited selective breeding is not nearly enough time to consider them domestic. i could catch the bird out side my window and stick it in a cage but that doesnt make it domesticated.

[mbbuna]

Originally posted by ezcompany
i think Long John Silvers bread clam

i need grammar check

[jmaneyapanda]

I, again, agree with some of the points you bring up, but dont understand how they show anything you are trying to prove.

Many of the domesticated species humans have created may be for aethetic pruposes only. But how does this define domestication? You had inquired as to my take on domestic plants- please give me some examples and I will give you my take. As a generalization, though, I will make the same claim, I HAVE BEEN MAKING ALL ALONG- these organisms are adaptively different from their ancestors. Flowers with atypical colors, forms, bloom periods- these are all measuerably different from their ancestors. Wheat, corn, other food grains- all measurably different from their forefathers. How did these adaptive differences come about? From a variety of reasons, such as genetic alteration, forced cross pollination, etc. This dos not really make a difference. What facts remain, are that these plants are adatively different from the "non-domestic" organisms, such selection came from human selection, and these traits do not need to be selected for generation after generation (the selected for trait is passed along genetically). This is what defines it as a hybrid.

You have been avoiding this question- How are your domestica clams different from the wild clams? If you could adequately answer this question, I might be closer to understanding and agreeing to your position. However, I cannot determine any real adaptive difference whatsoever. They have simply indiviudally adapted to the captive growing conditions. But the same clam could easily survive on the reef, and in fact, the clams that do survive on the reef, are essentially NO DIFFERENT than these domestica clams.

Lets play the analogy game here- go to your local zoo, and hop in the lion exhibit. Wait...why not? These, according to your definition are domestic animals, which humans have selected to live in proximity to humans. We have deleted the man-killers from the gene pool, and just have these F2-F10 generations of captive raised and "domesticated" cats. But, wait, why are they trying to kill and eat you? Because there has been human selection, but theye has been NO ADAPTIVE DIFFERENTIATION made between the lions of the Serengeti, and the lions of Zoo Atlanta.

So, I again ask, what adaptive differences do your domestica clams have that make them better suited for captivity, and garnish them the name domestica clams? The fact they are captive rasied does not apply. The fact they are subject to human selection does not apply, because as by you own pronunciation in the Encyclopedia Brittanicca definition, human selection is not the definition of domestication.

Lets get to your houseplants comparison. Are you maiing the claim that there is absolutely no difference between the plants that live in the wild tropics, and the plants which live in our house? No physiological difference, or anatomivcal difference, or biochemical difference? I am just grossly speculating, but I would guess that this is a misinterpretation of houseplants. I would guess they have adaptive roots or chloroplasts, or some of mechanisms to allow them to generate their energy with less light. I do not know this factually, but I will speak to our horticulturist at my work, and see exactly what his thoughts are on this.

As far as I can determnine from your claims, you consider these clams domesticated because they have adjusted to living in our aquariums. The human selection for this has been the "survival of only the fit" technique of if it dies, it doesnt get to the aquarium. This does not add up. What is the culturists purpose for breeding these clams? I can only gather your claim is to find a pretty clam which will survive in our aquarium. So, what selecion takes place? Do cultivars destroy ugly clams? How is it determined that they will adapt to aquarium conditons? Because they survive? Well, this is not human selection. In order for it to be human selection, the cultivars must somehow determine that clam A will survive in captive conditons do to some specific trait, and retain those genetic traits to be passed on. So, what is this magical trait that the clkam cultivars look for? when discussing your cows and flowers and grains, in is clearly obvious (as you clearly mention them). Small horns, big udders, pretty flowers, "sticky" grain seeds. All these different from their ancestral conditions. All adaptivelty changed, due to human selction. So, what is it with your domestica clams? Until this can be answered, you have no argument in my mind.

Please let me make this point clear, though, I obviously feel captive clams have a tremendous advantage over wild clams for our aquarium (as I have bought 4 of my 6 clams fom your captive supplied store). However, I cannot disagree more that this captive acclimitization is due to domestication.

[Slakker]

Originally posted by Kalkbreath
I would place many coral farm's products (like ORA ) and tank raised corals and fish in a equal standing as most domesticated house plants and many of the crops currently bestowed a domestic title.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. Captive Bred fish still have far too much of their wild instinct and behaviors intact to be considered domesticated. This is obvious in the sheer numbers of captive bred clowns that will eagerly and readily display hosting behavior when presented with an appropriate option. Nearly 100% success rates are observed when a natural host anemone is presented to the clowns. (i.e. P. Biaculeatus with E. Quadricolor.) and a good percentage of success is seen with unnatural hosts, as well (A. Percula with E. Quadricolor, for example.)

It takes more along the lines of thousands of years for creatures to become domesticated, and people have really only been keeping successful marine/reef tanks for what...25 years now? If that?

[Kalkbreath]

From Wikipedia

Here is a fine example an accepted Domestication much like if a a Derasa clam and A maxima clam were inter bred.(already happened)
This species of hedgehog could easily have happened in the wild had the two species "got it on" naturally.But because farmers in the 1980s got the idea that they could make a more ideal pet hedgehog if the color and size was adapted for domestic human companionship.

Domesticated hedgehog

The most common species of domesticated hedgehog is a hybrid of the White-bellied or Four-toed Hedgehog (Atelerix albiventris) and the Algerian Hedgehog (A. algirus). It is smaller than the European Hedgehog, and thus is sometimes called African Pygmy Hedgehog. Other species kept as pets are the Egyptian long-eared hedgehog (Hemiechinus auritus auritus) and the Indian long-eared hedgehog (Hemiechinus collaris)Hedgehog domestication began in the early 1980s. They still have much of their wild behavior, including a fear of predators - especially humans, but buying from a responsible breeder and proper handling will do a lot to ensure a friendly relationship. Since domestication began, several new colours of hedgehogs have been created or become common, including albino and pinto hedgehogs.

All three species prefer a warm climate (above 22°C , 72°F) and do not naturally hibernate. Attempts to hibernate due to lowered body temperatures are commonly fatal. In the wild they eat a diet of mainly insects, but pet owners generally prefer a diet composed primarily of high protein low fat high quality cat food, with regular treats such as mealworms, fruits, vegetables, and cooked unseasoned meats..

[Kalkbreath]

Secondly :There are many animals on this list which really are not geneticly altered and still are deemed Domestic.

From Wikipedia

this is a list of animals which have been domesticated by humans.

The list includes species or larger formal and informal zoological categories that include at least some domesticated individuals.

To be considered domesticated, a population of animals must have their behavior, life cycle, or physiology systemically altered as a result of being under human control for many generations. Animals included in this list that do not fully meet this criterion are designated "captive-bred" or semi-domesticated. The term domestic animal applies to domesticated animals that actually live in physical proximity to humans, such as pets and guard animals, or even food species kept very close, e.g. to live on domestic food scraps and/or so their body heat can be used as 'stable heating'.

This list is organized by the original or primary purpose for which the animals were domesticated. Animals with more than one significant human use have been listed in more than one category.
Contents
[show]

* 1 Socio-economical uses
o 1.1 Food
o 1.2 Other animal-produced Commodities
o 1.3 Labor and similar activities
o 1.4 Other socio-economical purposes
* 2 Intrinsically non-profit uses
o 2.1 Research and science
o 2.2 Other Medical purposes
o 2.3 Pets
o 2.4 Collection and display
* 3 See also

[edit] Socio-economical uses

The body and natural produce, as well as the labour and senses of various animals have been made useful for a wide variety of human activities. In this section profitable uses are treated; naturally other purposes usually also have an economical value.

[edit] Food

* Livestock
o cattle
o deer
+ reindeer (captive)
o goat
Black and brown goat
Black and brown goat
o Western honey bee
o pig
o sheep
* Fowl
o chicken
o duck
o goose
o guinea fowl
o pigeon
o swan (captive-bred)
o turkey
* Other food sources
o cat
o dog
o guinea pig
o rabbit
o rat
o snail
o bee
* Raised as food for other animals
o cricket (captive-bred)
o mealworm
o nightcrawler or earthworm (captive-bred)

[edit] Other animal-produced Commodities

* Fiber (for textiles)
o alpaca
o camel
o cat
o chinchilla (captive-bred)
o rabbit
o dog Some long haired dogs in Russia have had their hair spun into a type of yarn.
+ wolf
o goat
o llama
o musk ox (captive)
o possum
o sheep
o silk worm
o yak
* Leather or fur
o alligator (captive-bred)
o cattle
o ermine (captive-bred)
o ferret
o fox (captive-bred)
o mink (captive-bred)
o ostrich (captive-bred)
o otter (captive-bred)
* Other commodities
o pearl oyster (captive-bred)
o reindeer antler

[edit] Labor and similar activities

See the article on Working animals for various ways in which the muscle power, sensorial functions and other natural abilities of animals (not always domesticated) are put to use in the service of human culture and for military application.

* ape
* bat
* bees
* birds of prey
* camel
* cat
* dog
* Dolphin
* donkey
* elephant (captive-bred)
* ferret
* horse
* llama
* Monkey
* Mule
* Orca
* oxen
* Pigs
* Pigeon
* Rats
* reindeer (domesticated caribou)
* rhinoceros
* Seal
* Sealion
* water buffalo
* Whale
* yak
* Zebras

[edit] Other socio-economical purposes

* ladybug (captive bred)
* sterile insects (for control of their wild fellows)

[edit] Intrinsically non-profit uses

[edit] Research and science

While nearly all species can potentially be involved in research related to their natural behaviour, there are a limited number of species that are frequently chosen, for convenience and/or as 'representative' substitute for test which would be unethical to perform on human test persons.

* the very name of the guinea-pig has become synonymous with the use of animals for laboratory tests
* dolphin (captive-bred)
* fruit fly
* mice
* lab rat
* tame silver fox (isolated Russian experiment)
* primates, the very order man belongs to, are for that very reason often the best physical choice for research concerning human bodily functions, from invaluable medical data to cosmetic products. Within the order, rhesus monkeys are most used, while again because of even closer genetical proximity for certain tests only apes (mainly chimpanzee; orang-outang and gorilla are even rarer and harder to breed) are considered fully satisfactory.
* Żubroń, a cross-breed between Wisent and domestic cattle

[edit] Other Medical purposes

* leech (captive-bred)

[edit] Pets

(See main article on pets for animals whose main pupose is human enjoyment, rather than value) A few common examples :

* carp
* cat
* chinchilla
* dog
* ferret
* gerbil
* goldfish
* guinea pig
* guppy
* Hedgehog
* hamster
* mouse
* rabbit
* rat
* skunk
* tilapia
* Some species of reptiles, such as the ball python and leopard gecko

[edit] Collection and display

While many more wild species can be put on display after capture in the wild or bred in captivity intended to resemble natural reproduction as closely as possible (sometimes sadly very different) in scientific and/or survival programs, an impressive number of species is bred, often alongside (often illegal) capture in the wild and collected, not for any useful purpose to the owner (listed above or under working animal) but for breeding in view of possible extinction in their natural habitat and/or for display in private or for the public (not necessarily managed for profit), as in an aquarium or vivarium, in zoos, safari parks etc. This is the case with many (especially tropical) fish, butterflies, song - and birds etc.

[Kalkbreath]

It sure seems like

From Wikipedia

feels that any animal "not wild " ......is domesticated.

[jmaneyapanda]

Originally posted by Kalkbreath
It sure seems like feels that any animal "not wild " ......is domesticated.

Are you kidding me?

I dont see that discussing this serves any purpose anymore, as we always end up in the same place. You find these wonderful quotes from wikipedia that tell what a domesticated animal is, gives examples, and then you make ignore the information, and make an unrelated or questionable comment such as above. For example, great hedgehog reference. But you CLEARLY state they were selected due to their size and color. DIFFERENT ADAPTIVE TRAITS. Please, apply this to your clams. If you can't, then your point is moot.

Tell you what, why dont we just say that every organism on the planet is domesticated, because the humans are involved on every plane on (and off) this planet, and therefore our influence has domesticated everything. Sounds extreme and ridiculous, huh? Well, it is not far off what you have said.
There is more to domestication than just human selection. At the beginning of this thread, you didn't seem to disagree, now it is just ignored.

[Slakker]

Originally posted by jmaneyapanda
Tell you what, why dont we just say that every organism on the planet is domesticated, because the humans are involved on every plane on (and off) this planet, and therefore our influence has domesticated everything. Sounds extreme and ridiculous, huh? Well, it is not far off what you have said.

Well said.

[Charlie Davidson]

Ditto! BTW, I agree, Clam x likes sand is bunk!

[Kalkbreath]

Originally posted by jmaneyapanda
[B]Are you kidding me?

DIFFERENT ADAPTIVE TRAITS. Please, apply this to your clams. If you can't, then your point is moot.

It seem that Wikipedia agrees with my point of view: that quite a few unconventionally thought of animals fit appropriately into the Domesticated category.

and that "Captive raised" does clearly fit under the category of "Domesticated".

Domesticated Reindeer are no different from their wild counterparts other then born as captives.

Rats and carp are included in theis topic as are rinos born and raised under captive conditions.

and most importantly included in this list is the peal Oyster. Which would be the closest parallel to ornamental clams or corals.

Again anything not wild is domestically raised.

Everything Wikipedia is referring to under the heading Domesticated' they are considering not wild.

Can we name something not wild which is not domesticated?

[Kalkbreath]

Domestication begins the instant that mankind ceases to let mother nature dictate which set of genes get to procreate.

Repeatedly pairing up clams for a certain color pattern or adaptation of which would offer the clam no benefit out in the wild is genetic domestication.


Secondly conditioning a Rino or Reindeer species to not be spooked by close proximity's to humans is clearly social domestication.

As pointed out by Wikipedia.

[mbbuna]

Kalk, i think you might be on to something!

every Sunday morning i look to see whats out there for sale and who's selling what. low and behold there it was, a domesticated clam

[reefkoi]

Thread of the month? LMAO, Rant of the month is more like it!
J/K So much useful info here I can see why someone would want it to be voted for

[jmaneyapanda]

Originally posted by Kalkbreath
Domestication begins the instant that mankind ceases to let mother nature dictate which set of genes get to procreate.

Repeatedly pairing up clams for a certain color pattern or adaptation of which would offer the clam no benefit out in the wild is genetic domestication.


Secondly conditioning a Rino or Reindeer species to not be spooked by close proximity's to humans is clearly social domestication.

As pointed out by Wikipedia.

Kalk- you are so far off base. I have personally worked with all the species you have mentioned in the last two posts, and you couldnt be more wrong.

First things first- I am under the impression that thsi is what wikipedia calls domestication: "Domesticated: These species or varieties are bred and raised under human control for many generations and are substantially altered as a group in appearance or behaviour". Despite this, are we really trying to use wikipedia as the authortiy on this topic? Either way, I am having difficulty finding where it says animals are wild unless they are totally uninfluenced by man. That is a ridiculous concept. Let me turn the tables on you- what is wild, then? The reefs are riddled with problems caused by man, so can we say any reef animal is wild? According to your definitoin- they are domestciated. That is nonsense. If you chose this to create your definiton in your head, so be it, I have no premise to change your mind. But, do nnot call these clams domestic publicly (or sell them as such), because that is a misappropriate use of that term, and is gross false representation.

Lets talk about your examples- reindeer, rhinos, rats, carp. Are these wild or domestic? You claim all are domestic. That is a farce. First off, how familiar are you with these species? It is an ignorant claim to say that captive reindeer are no different than wild reindeer. Acclimitization to human contact is a sole effect of individual environmental conditoning. Having worked with these animals in captive settings, I know they are familiar with their routine surroundings, but change a slight item (new staff, atypical exhibitmates, stimulus, etc), those "domestic" animals revert, and take to flight, and crach a fence and break their neck. Despite this- is this habitualization passed on to further generations? Absolutely NOT! IT IS INDIVUDAL and based completely on the environment. And changes, as the environment changes. Any one of those animals, if born in wild conditons, would be just as likely to survive as if it were born in captivity.

With pearl oysters- how are these animals domesticated? Whgat do they do in captivity that they dont do in the wild? In captivity, they are simply held in a artificial environmnet which maximizes a natural process (pearl creation).

Asking me to name animals which are not wild and not omesticated falls into the hybridizations. But otherwise, I consider these organism to be one or the other. The difference between you and I is that I consider MANY orghanisms to be wild, while using your defintioon, there are very very few.

Repeatedly pairing up clams for a certain color pattern or adaptation of which would offer the clam no benefit out in the wild is genetic domestication.

Absolutely wrong. This is human selection and no different. Especially since you tried to slip in that part "adaptation" WHICH DOES NOT EXIST FOR THESE CLAMS! If it does- please, name it!!!! Otherwise, quit mentioning it!

Domestication begins the instant that mankind ceases to let mother nature dictate which set of genes get to procreate.

How can you honestly make a claim like this? How has minkind NOT somehow dictated such? Humans have effected the atmosphere, the land, the water- we have a global impact on every organism (at least that humans know of). Therefore, using your definiton, there is no wild animals left, only domesticated ones. I know you have contention with the terms aquacultured, etc. (which I actually agree with to an extent), apparently due to the fac it is misapplied. I do not understand how you cannot admit you are doing the exact same with this term- manipulating and mutating it to be what you want, despite it's negating effects on a homogeneous meaning.

Lets get a little more in depth here, a short while ago, there were very few California Condors left in the wild, so man collected some eggs, hatched them in captivity with the premise of releasing them back to the wild. Things appear to be turning around for this species, but what if the existing wild indivudals died, and the only remaining California Condors where the ones hatched from eggs (which have never seen a human, and have only functioned under the social aspects of condor life)? These condors, which are F1 generation wild, from wild parents which copulated and layed an egg totally despite the human involvement- what are these, wild or domestic? What are they after they return to the wild, and continue living their life isolated from direct human involvement?

[jmaneyapanda]

Originally posted by Kalkbreath

Repeatedly pairing up clams for a certain color pattern or adaptation of which would offer the clam no benefit out in the wild is genetic domestication.

Anyways, correct me if Im wrong, but clam breeders dont put two clams together for propogation, they have many adult clams in a raceway (of even several different species), and stimulate them all to spawn simultaneously. What clam breeder pairs clams?

[mbbuna]

Originally posted by reefkoi
Thread of the month? LMAO, Rant of the month is more like it!
J/K So much useful info here I can see why someone would want it to be voted for

its not my fault this thread was hijacked. i tried a few times to get it back on track not much more i can do