Clam under PC

[mbbuna]

Originally posted by rabidcrab
the tanks been around for a year. i dont need to justify anything to you,

your right, you dont need to justify anything to me. but the original poster should get good info. and you should tell the original poster how long you've had the clams so they know what experience you are pulling from

it can take clams a year or more to slowly starve to death from improper light

mbbuna ur just following the crowd.

that deserves another

[rabidcrab]

what ever you say mbbuna :] your the all knowing. I have a buisness for maintaining saltwater tanks and i couldnt tell you how many tanks with PC's have clams thriving... but again your the all knowing i must be wrong ...

[bobbacon]

Originally posted by rabidcrab
what ever you say mbbuna :] your the all knowing. I have a buisness for maintaining saltwater tanks and i couldnt tell you how many tanks with PC's have clams thriving... but again your the all knowing i must be wrong ...

MBBUNA reminds me of Cliff Clavin the mailman from the TV show Cheers. LOL

[a4twenty]

Originally posted by bobbacon
MBBUNA reminds me of Cliff Clavin the mailman from the TV show Cheers. LOL

what a useful and insightful first post


remember everyone

[rabidcrab]

lol i cant stop laughing

[Kogo]

Originally posted by rabidcrab
i keep my tanks spotless, and i dont care for growing coralline on my glass, i take it off as soon as i see it

you must be very vigilant. no coraline on the glass, none on the power heads, none on the algea magnet.... i could only keep my tanks that clean for the first 2 - 3 months of operation.

... of course that green film of algea on the side glass doesnt seem quite spotless.

but anyway, cool "1year old" tank...


as for advice given by mbbuna, he's been keeping clams for quite a while and sharing excellent advice with many reefers. from what i read he seems more interested in the best methods of keeping clams that will be the most successfull for the average hobbiest, and not the exceptions that are made by a few people for a few months.

[Rockhead21564]

Well said Kogo. The disrespect shown to mbuna shows a total lack of knowledge, par for the course I guess. I'm not caring who is giving poor advice, only that the newer members know its poor. A tank cleaning business means nothing as far as "knowing " what you're doing. I've seen many, many people start maint. businesses with very little experience. I've also fixed their messes. Nice tank anyway, I have no "envy" of it by any means though,lol. Denial is denial, especially when it comes to admitting your wrong.

[rabidcrab]

I could take more pics, zoom in and show you all my algea in my tank... if thats what you guys would like. It's a bit rediculous a few of you want to tell me how old my tank is? ... well ok :] its a few months old? ya got me???? ow??

I was just making a point in this thread that you can keep clams happy with pc's if u know what ur doin. It went from that, to this, you guys trying to make me feel bad about my tank and my methods and telling me that my tank doesnt have algae.... lol well thanks guys i work hard on my tanks i know. and it pays off when i have people telling me theyre so clean they look new.

just because you dont agree with sum1's method, doesnt mean you have to pick fights with them. (mbbuna,rockhead,kogo)

And i hope all of you wont loose sleep tonight thinking about how I have clams under my power compacts. :]

[Kogo]

Originally posted by rabidcrab

just because you dont agree with sum1's method, doesnt mean you have to pick fights with them. (mbbuna,rockhead,kogo)

sounds like someones late for nap time.


no-one is picking an Internet fight with you. it just gets to be a bit annoying discussing things online when someone makes wild claims that seem inconsistent with previous statements.

for example

different claims about lighting, then frustration when questioned.

stating the age of the tank instead of the clam, when asked about how long the clams were in it.

and outright anger when people see pictures of your tank, and point out that it looks more like a new setup than an established tank.


the bottom line is that people who post asking about PC lighting on the clam forum generaly get the same set of answers. consistant recomendations for specific types of lighting for specific types of clams based on long term experiance and the individual species natural habitat ...vs... ive had a clam all week and its doing great.

hopefully posters can figure out who is worth listening to!

[rabidcrab]

hopefully.

[Rockhead21564]

Hopefully everyone doesn't just use discussions on these threads and actually does some research.

Rapid, I have not animosity towards you or your tank. It's just tath in my experience almost all people that make the PC light and clam arguement don't tell the entire story. One guy said everything was great and didn't tell about the XL picture window or the one that actually replaced his clams once each year or so, but didn't know why they "just disappeared" one day. You can't give blanket advice to newbies that is questionable at best for the masses. Advice here must be as board specturmed as possible. Also, please don't give advice or opinions if you don't want an opposing viewpoint stated, it will happen everytime, i.e. DSB v. BB, PC v. MH, how big or type of fish can I have. Good luck.

[Racso]

thank you for making my thread a great example of why RC is a bad place for easy information... you get true experts debating something in one style, newbies jumping in giving newbie advice in an expert fashion, and then people start arguing about crap that is irrelevent to the point of the thread.

Apparently I didn't ask my question in the fashion I needed too. Anyway, I found the answer to my question elsewhere. This thread has gone WAY off topic. Mods, I think I deserve the right to ask for this thread to be locked.

Thank you

[critterkeeper]

I just happened to check in...

First, Mbunna is one of the most knowledgeable sources of information here. Period. You should thank him for spending his time dishing out post after post of factual info (for free), rather than argue or accuse of following any crowd.

Second, yes you can keep tridacnids under fluorescents (VHO, PC, or T5) - IF you place them close enough to the bulbs. However, croceas and maximas in particular look entirely different when placed up high close to the lights, instead of down low on the bottom - unless you have a really, really plain clam. Thus, placing them high in a tank really defeats the whole point of buying such nice clams in the first place. Take a look at most of them sitting up high from the top of a tank and then you'll wish it was on the bottom...

Third, every clam is different, and there are instances where one clam may thrive under fluorescents at a given depth while dozens of others (of the same species) may slowly starve under the exact same lights and depth. Thus, there will be people from time to time that really do succeed at keeping high-light clams (like croceas) under fluorescents at a significant depth. But, when you buy a clam there's no way to know if it's a "tough one" or not. So, you need to provide an approproate amount of light for any clam of that species, rather than take a chance on perhaps getting an individual that can survive on less than it's cousins.

Fourth, it is true that clams can take many months, rather than days or weeks, to starve to death when kept under insufficient lighting. So, anyone that hasn't had one for about a year or more cannot claim success, unless there is obvious shell growth.

When it comes down to it, you can't go wrong with MH unless you've got a really, really deep tank. Using anything else can be taking a chance when it comes to most clams, croceas in particular. Still, I hope to soon see some real data from controlled experiments comparing T5 to MH, which may be enlightening (har, har), but until I see real data with comparable numbers, this reefer won't be taking any more chances than absolutely required.

James Fatherree
http://www.fatherree.com/james/bibliography.htm

[ezcompany]

here's another bump for mbbuna's credibility. he has helped me out of pinches many times, and is currently helping me with my battle with PM. i will take his word at heart before i take anyone elses...(maybe except James' )

[bobbacon]

Originally posted by critterkeeper
I just happened to check in...

First, Mbunna is one of the most knowledgeable sources of information here. Period. You should thank him for spending his time dishing out post after post of factual info (for free), rather than argue or accuse of following any crowd.

Second, yes you can keep tridacnids under fluorescents (VHO, PC, or T5) - IF you place them close enough to the bulbs. However, croceas and maximas in particular look entirely different when placed up high close to the lights, instead of down low on the bottom - unless you have a really, really plain clam. Thus, placing them high in a tank really defeats the whole point of buying such nice clams in the first place. Take a look at most of them sitting up high from the top of a tank and then you'll wish it was on the bottom...

Third, every clam is different, and there are instances where one clam may thrive under fluorescents at a given depth while dozens of others (of the same species) may slowly starve under the exact same lights and depth. Thus, there will be people from time to time that really do succeed at keeping high-light clams (like croceas) under fluorescents at a significant depth. But, when you buy a clam there's no way to know if it's a "tough one" or not. So, you need to provide an approproate amount of light for any clam of that species, rather than take a chance on perhaps getting an individual that can survive on less than it's cousins.

Fourth, it is true that clams can take many months, rather than days or weeks, to starve to death when kept under insufficient lighting. So, anyone that hasn't had one for about a year or more cannot claim success, unless there is obvious shell growth.

When it comes down to it, you can't go wrong with MH unless you've got a really, really deep tank. Using anything else can be taking a chance when it comes to most clams, croceas in particular. Still, I hope to soon see some real data from controlled experiments comparing T5 to MH, which may be enlightening (har, har), but until I see real data with comparable numbers, this reefer won't be taking any more chances than absolutely required.

James Fatherree
http://www.fatherree.com/james/bibliography.htm

So you seem to agree, yes you can keep clams, which require a lot of light if you keep them close enough under high wattage fluorescents. This is something that many have been saying for a long time now only to be attacked by the select few who think they are experts in this forum. I am also sure you would agree that limited anecdotal evidence from an internet forum or real life is hardly statistically valid. Yes they require strong lighting, but if its mantle is receiving enough photonic energy, it doesn’t matter if it is from MH, PC or other means. I see no reason why someone couldn’t keep light loving clams under high wattage fluorescents if kept close enough. The exact minimum wattage/distance recommendation is something that needs to be quantified. They may not be in the best position for viewing but this is purely subjective.

Yet, many in this forum believe they are the final word. They believe by looking at a photograph they can deduce the age of a tank based on if they see algae and thus question or ridicule the validity of others. They seem to believe that every crocea or maxima clam under PC that dies is because of poor lighting. They discount the experiences of many others who have had maximas or croceas under fluorescents with new shell growth. They think all croceas or maximas that survive under fluorescents is because of luck and refuse to look for a scientific explanation. The above post suggesting that all these people are lying and they have their tanks near a window is preposterous.

The immature antics and unscientific conclusions by these so-called experts keep many of us laughing at our computer screens.

[Rockhead21564]

Wow Bob, I said "all most all" not all and never said anyone was "lying". I'm not the final word nor an expert. I do say that most people with PC's/clams don't see the whole picture and don't give all the information because they don't know any better. I believe these threads and forums should give info on the best possible way to do things, i.e. the easiest for newbies.

As James says " you can't go wrong with MH's", not "sure their both great and are equally as good". I don't think you read his comments very well though, he just said everything we've been saying in past discussions. He's saying that you can do it but not all will survive unless you find a "tough one". Sounds familiar. James states that it takes a year or more for clams to strave. Sounds familiar. States MH's are your safest and best bet. Sounds familiar. Did you read the whole thing?

I also believe that 25+ years and 1000's of customer tanks cleaned, sold, and consulted, is "limited anecdotal evidence". I do know a couple things about stuff and seen lots of it, lol.

Nobody here was immature on this thread, maybe some alittle more passionate, but not immature. Well, until you kinda did the I'M RIGHT YOU'RE ALL WRONG DANCE" anyway. This thread is why I usually don't jump into this mess, nobody wants to be wrong. They read the part of an answer they like and leave out the parts that say their wrong. They've got a degree, which nobody else could possible have, some experience with saltwater and read a couple books and act superior to any laymen that spouts an opinion. Funny its "ALWAYS" doctors and lawyers,lol. Waste of breath, probably why Mbuna "retired" for it. Good luck all.

[rabidcrab]

no, the fact is the arguement was started by me saying you can do it. and everyone who holds their head high in the clouds and refuse a more dynamic proposition on aquariums wants to bite me and tell me im wrong, and then to go as far as picking apart my tank? BOB is certainly right, I have been laughing at my computer screen on this thread.

Im going to the world pet expo today, Ill remember to talk to julian sprung about this. Im sure hes smart enough to understand that you can grow clams with PC's.

The fact is this thread was took way too far. Due to arrogance of a few members. Be it they have been around the Forum longer than other members, everyone has a valid opinion. And i will take you people saying "OMGZ YOU HAVE TO HAVE METAL HALIDES WITH CLAMS OR ELSE YOULL DESTROY LIFE" and Ill reply with an "ok, ive never had that problem before! my clams are beautiful and HAPPY!" no problem people.

I didn't attack anyone elses opinion, atleast untill my opinion was attacked. I wont say any names but if your gonna attack peoples opinions GET OFF THE INTERNET.

So lesson i learned: reconsider voicing your legit, time tested, experienced, and perfectly acceptable opinion again in these forums.... (wait doesnt that destroy the point of a forum????? thanks to you arrogant members.)

[rabidcrab]

BTW im not discrediting anyone elses experience, im sure you guys know what your doing with fish tanks.

but this whole discussion is a bit rediculous. I think a true seasoned aquarist would have a more dynamic approach to opinions and reef keeping discussions.

[jbittner]

In some tanks MH can be the wrong solution. I have a small 55 gal that used to have MH lighting. I had 2x250 and pc actinics. Even in the winter I could not keep my temps stable and the temperature would get to 84 degrees during the day (even worse in the summer). Don't get me wrong I loved the light and the shimmering effect on the tank. I decided to change to t5. Most clam people call this a downgrade in light. My clams get all the energy they need from the new lights. I have a 3 yr old crocea that has been in both tanks. It has show no change in color intensity or growth rates. I also have 3 newer croceas (just past the one year mark) that are doing great. My temps stay right at 80 degrees. On a side note, I would never put a crocea or a maxima in a tank with PC, not all flourescents are the same.

[jbittner]

BTW, mbbuna sweet tanks.

[mbbuna]

Originally posted by bobbacon


The immature antics and unscientific conclusions by these so-called experts keep many of us laughing at our computer screens.

this is my first post in the thread

a few months is No testament to success

#2

the people that collect these clams use snorkels or hookahs. there very good at what they do but they dont go that deep.

this statement was made because i thought i was in this thread that i had read previously. http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1035826

i think this thread should be renamed "you may be barely able to sustain a clam without these recommendations, but if you want to give your clams what they need to thrive read this"

#3

this is a legitimate question (that was never answered)

what kind? and for how long? Pics please!

this is legit also, doesnt it make your eyebrow go up when someone contradicts them self?

you contradict yourself within the same thread, do you have 3 or 4 or 180w PC or 240W PC

i stand by this also, go look at the photo,rocks, pumps, glass, below the substrate.

nice NEW tank, how long have you had the clams? i see little or no coralline algae growth on the back tank. keeping a clam alive for a few months isnt proof of them thriving

whats wrong with this statement? its true

this reminds me of a guy a few years ago that used to crow about keeping clams under normal output fluorescents. he has a web site that explains "how " he does it. i check in to his site every now and then. he always has different clams, i wonder where the old clams go? but technical he does keep them under these lights

heres the first attack in the thread (not made by me but on me)

the tanks been around for a year. i dont need to justify anything to you, this thread went from giving opinions on exp. to select people being close minded and hard headed. mbbuna ur just following the crowd.

my reply to that was " " and

your right, you dont need to justify anything to me. but the original poster should get good info. and you should tell the original poster how long you've had the clams so they know what experience you are pulling from

Bob dont miss this part, this is your very first post in this thread and on RC. way to go brother!!!! i think a biochemist could come up with something better then this.

MBBUNA reminds me of Cliff Clavin the mailman from the TV show Cheers. LOL

well done my friend, now whats this all about?

The immature antics and unscientific conclusions by these so-called experts keep many of us laughing at our computer screens.

where is your science?

where did i attack anyone?

[jbittner]

mbbuna, don't worry about some of the people on reefcentral. Most of us here thank you for all the good info you and critterkeeper post here. Some people (me included) don't like to here the words can't or shouldn't.

[rabidcrab]

theres no right way to do anything.
and this arguement is proof that some people don't understand that.

[critterkeeper]

Hey Rabidcrab,

You wrote:

"I have a buisness for maintaining saltwater tanks and i couldnt tell you how many tanks with PC's have clams thriving..."

Enlighten me. How many? What species, how deep, what lights, how long, etc.?

Melbourne is pretty small, how many reef customers do you have over there??? (I'm in Tampa)

[Rockhead21564]

No right way to do anything, huh. That may be the silliests thing I've heard when it comes to reefing. There might be slight difference in some things, but overall there are set ways to do things correctly. I do wish you luck. As for the gentlemen with the heating issues and MH's - chillers and fans, oh my,lol.