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#26
07/23/2007, 02:52 PM
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So it seems confirmed that Dow's statement about not being able to insure the purity of their calcium in the future was correct. Did you guys know about this before? I feel like I might of actually broke some ground in this difficult hobby!! 
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#27
07/23/2007, 03:25 PM
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Nope Cham, that was a discovery on your own and thanks
__________________
If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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#30
09/08/2007, 08:50 AM
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In a discussion with a reef suppliment manufacturer, here is part of an email discussion. I would prefer not to discuss names.
" Thanks for sending me the thread on bromide and calcium chloride. No need to be concerned about excessive levels of bromide in our two part. While our source of chemicals is proprietary, I can assure you we stay on top of our suppliers assay sheets and in some cases "tweek" our formula accordingly. It looks like the participants in this thread are forgetting that it's not just the level of bromide in the salts that is a concern, but the ratio of bromide to other anions such as chloride. If the ratio of these anions duplicates natural seawater ratios, then any increase will result in an increase in salinity. Since the aquarist controls increasing salinity by removing tank water and replacing it with fresh water.....the levels of these anions are kept in check. While I haven't sat down and done the calculations, it looks like the amount of bromide being mentioned is fairly close to the natural seawater ratio of bromide to chloride when considering how much chloride ion is ! being added with the calcium chloride....once the aquarist corrects for salinity, I doubt the levels could ever reach a danger point. Perhaps if the aquarist was only using calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate this could happen, as chloride would slowly replace sulfate ions over time thereby allowing more bromide into the system before salinity adjustments would keep it in check. In a properly formulated 2 component, this would not happen as the aquarist is adding the natural seawater ratios of bromide:chloride:sulfate. " This is getting a little too deep for this simpleton. What do you guys think? |
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#31
09/08/2007, 12:56 PM
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It looks like the participants in this thread are forgetting that it's not just the level of bromide in the salts that is a concern, but the ratio of bromide to other anions such as chloride......................it looks like the amount of bromide being mentioned is fairly close to the natural seawater ratio of bromide to chloride when considering how much chloride ion is
Someone is misleading you. NSW has 65ppm Bromide and 19,000 ppm chloride a ratio of 292 :1 and if one kept the same ratio and the bromide increased by 2 x or 130 ppm then the chloride would need to increase to 38,000 ppm, which is nonsense. No salt is even close to that when the bromide is 2x, 3 or even 4 x or more. The chloride is still near that ~19,000 ppm. Most salt mixes are just over that 19,000 by 200 ppm or so. That Br ion being added comes in with the CaCl2. It by itself is not adding more chloride. The CaCl2 is "contaminated" so to speak with lots of Br. As far as danger levels go we don 't know. As far as using two-parts they are just adding even more bromide unless they are correct as stated. We are hoping all will make corrections in salt mixes and two-parts. Doing regular WC will help about 35 % /m I'm not so much worried about two-parts it is salt mixes themselves which are already way to high and then worsened by two-parts, which are mostly calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate. I have already talked to one two-part manufacture and they use to add Bromide to their two-part and will now be dispensing with its addition. |
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#32
09/09/2007, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
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#34
09/09/2007, 02:14 PM
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I will have to disagree Jon as some are adding bromide to their two-parts with out knowing that the CaCl2 is loaded with Br. As I said in this Bromide thread Julian is /was adding Br to his two part. He did not know the CaCl2 was laced with Br. They need to test their CaCl2 for Br to know they they are at or a least have access to a data sheet showing Br levels such as the DOW sheet posted in this thread.
__________________
If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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#36
09/09/2007, 02:35 PM
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I agree this company may be doing that, I hope
__________________
If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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#37
09/26/2007, 07:18 AM
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So all of the 77-80% was made with the old way and all of the 83-87% is made with the new way? |
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#39
09/29/2007, 08:17 AM
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Randy where did you pick up your bag of dow? |
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#40
09/29/2007, 10:03 AM
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I think this Bromide issue could be a big problem. At first it seems like the loss of Southdown, but this problem goes even deeper. Salt manufacturers depend on Dow flakes. Probably all the 2-part suppliers from B-ionic to Kent. Not only that you really can't test for Bromide w/out a mass spec.
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#41
09/29/2007, 04:30 PM
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There is no shortage of suitable calcium chloride manufactures in the world. I sincerely doubt this will have much effect on the aquarium salt manufacturers.
Far as the DIY hobbyist goes, it might get harder to find calcium chloride at hardware stores that isn't Dow or repackaged Dow but I have absolutely no doubt that this community will find one, : ) Last edited by Snarkys; 09/29/2007 at 04:39 PM. |
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#42
09/29/2007, 04:45 PM
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Calcium Carbonate (limestone) + HCl (Muratic Acid) = CaCl (calcium cloride).
So we can make a better dow flake with limestone or calcium reactor chips and muratic acid from Home Depot. You would have to get your stochiometry right so that you didn't end up with two acidic a solution. You would need a scale to calculate yield for dosing purposes. Don't know how cost effective it would be but the purity should be good after locating a cheap phosphate free source of CaCO3. I'll stick with 2part solution for convenience as long as they keep a good and cost effective supply. But is it nice to know there will be alternatives. |
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#43
10/16/2007, 01:53 PM
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Wow, that’s disappointing that they’ll change it that much. A bit higher would be fine, but that’s likely too much.
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#44
10/16/2007, 02:03 PM
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Thanks for looking
__________________
If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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#45
10/16/2007, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
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#47
10/17/2007, 10:32 PM
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How can we think they have made any needed changes in their sources of calcium , if they didnt even know it was an issue? So if the salts are suspect then what about the calcium supplements? Whats the levels in those high calcium products? A reef tank owner with High calcium requirements adds a lot more calcium through supplemental additions , then from the calcium found in their brand of salt. I have already noticed a problem with tridacna clams and several popular calcium brands. I have even noticed a new , chlorine like odor when mixing some hobby grade calcium products. I have used these products for years and this new smell must be caused by some sort of change in the product. even Coca Cola has been affected by the Bromate issue. The Coca Cola Co. recalled 500,000 bottles of its Dasani bottled water in Britain last year after finding elevated levels of bromate. Coke blamed the bromate problem on its practice of adding calcium chloride to the treated tap water it sold as Dasani. Coke's Dasani water sold in the United States is also produced from tap water, but is not treated with calcium chloride.(bromide is considered a cancer risk) If some calcium suppliments contain 8,000 ppm bromide and hobbyists add a little to their aquarium every week with calcium additions........Whats to say bromide/bromine is not continually increasing inside their aquarium? (Because bromide does not break down in an aquarium) This would be like a ticking time bomb. With high levels of bromide, even a small amount of chlorine would react with the Bromide to form "bromine" , which is a commonly used aquatic bleach used in the irradication of zebra mussels and such from marine habitats. I sure have noticed a lot of advanced hobbyists coming down with tank crash fever as of late. I think any new salt tests should include bromide above all other elements. We all know the salts have the staples: Calcium , Chloride , alkalinity Magnesium etc., Its the elements we dont want found in commercial salts that I think we should be paying more attention to. The manufacturers sure seem like they aren't! |
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#48
10/17/2007, 11:12 PM
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Interesting Kalk. We are having some test done that will yield the Bromide levels in about 10 salts or so in a couple of months.
__________________
If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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#49
10/18/2007, 12:30 AM
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Do you agree with my position that Calcium supplements might be an even greater concern?
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#50
10/18/2007, 12:55 AM
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My position is the same as yours/say on sup's if we are talking CaCl sups. First, we have to see what the salt actually have. The Inland study showed crap loads of Br. but I really do not buy it and think they may be decimal point off. If Bromide levels are normal in seasalts then the addition of sup's can be off-set back to normal levels by doing ~35 % wc / m.
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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