The inwall 380 starfire reborn

[jnarowe]

20K all the way!

[Sparkss]

I don't think I am ready to go quite that far over to the dark side . Besides, I am pretty sure the PAR at 20K off of an IC ballast would really suck and we are pretty married to just having 2 lamps over our tank (and IC 400W max at that)

[Sparkss]

Ok, all of this talk prompted me to take another look at Sanjay's data (you all know how much I love the charts )

So here is what we have now Eileen :


Plot BLV 400W Nepturion 14000K SE 1 Icecap 400W Electronic N 152 13648 419 123 3.5 0.3649

The Ushio 14k is the same as the BLV 14k (just don't confuse them with the Ushio 10k ). At 13.6 Kelvin, it is a much bluer bulb than the 10Ks that we switched from on our tank. But as time moves on I am thinking that they were not blue enough (*sigh*)

The next contender is the Aquaconnect (at over $125 a bulb the last time I looked. I could get 2 Ushios for what 1 AC cost, but it looks like they might be worth it). Ringing in with a PPFD just 9 points lower then the Ushio, but the CCT is off the charts (It has a huge spike in the 450 - 465 range).

Plot Aquaconnect 400W 14000K SE 1 Icecap 400W Electronic N 143 0 418 121 3.56 0.3421

There were a few other SE bulbs that rang in with decent PPFD and CCT numbers (and some with not so great numbers )

Plot Hamilton 400W 10000K SE 1 Icecap 400W Electronic N 143 8978 419 121 3.57 0.3427
Plot Ushio 400W 10000K SE 1 Icecap 400W Electronic N 138 7191 419 120 3.59 0.3296
Plot Giesemann 400W Marine SE 1 Icecap 400W Electronic N 132 7140 414 122 3.46 0.3191
Plot Krystal Star 400W 11000K SE 1 Icecap 400W Electronic N 131 6909 422 121 3.59 0.3109
Plot Helios 400W 20000K SE 1 Icecap 400W Electronic N 119 0 420 122 3.52 0.2855
Plot Helios 400W 12500K SE 1 Icecap 400W Electronic N 115 24427 412 123 3.45 0.2796

Both Reeflux (10K and 12K) came in with decent color when used on an IC ballast. The 10K edging out with high PPFD, as expected. But even with the higher PAR they still came in at 24 and 37 points (respectively) under the Ushio 14Ks (that is just under 16% and 25% of the Ushio's PAR less). Both had a big spike in the blue range and not much in the higher (more yellow) spectrums, so they both would be pretty blue.

Plot Coralvue ReefLux 400W 10000K SE 1 Icecap 400W Electronic N 129 0 417 121 3.52 0.3098

Plot Coralvue ReefLux 400W 12000K SE 1 Icecap 400W Electronic N 116 0 426 122 3.58 0.2723


I think that we will start looking around online to price out some AC bulbs, but last I recalled they were hard to come by and when found in stock they were not exactly cheap. So, if anyone has any leads on where to get them, please post here . I would love to try them out over our tank

[raddogz]

I think I'll stick with the these 14k's for a bit, I now have to purchase another 400w IC ballast and another bulb. I will say I like the look of 12k which is reminescent of the Phoenix bulbs, the growth I had under 12k 250w Reeflux was so dismal, and the colors seemed blah (mind I do not run supplemental lighting).

I guess I'll suck it up for now, and see how it goes. It's not like it's awful, just a little whiter in appearance than what I'm used to

I believe Sanjay is running the Giesemann's on his tank. I heading towards the AC down the road, so let me know if you come across any good deals.

[mcurl98]

FWIW, I ended up going with IC 400s and the Helios 20K. I have supps but they go off when the halides are on as they are not needed. I really like the combo and the corals are gowing much better than they were under my Phoenix 14k 250s. To my eye, the phoenixs appear more blue than the Helios. Phoenix was a bit too blue IMO. I've heard the ACs look a lot lot the phoenix.

[raddogz]

Sorry to hijack the thread for a minute Tom

I have SE so no access to Phoenix (not sure even if they make 400's).

I believe Reefermadness uses 20k 400w Helios bulbs.

I was thinking of doing some growing out on the Ushio 14k's and then switching to a 20k for coloring up a bit more.

I've heard that the 50k 400w (I think DE only) are pretty awesome too.

[Sparkss]

Eileen, no hijak at all. It is all relevant . I also need to determine the best next bulb to put over our tank. I will say that the growth has been adequate with the Ushios, but not phenomenal like it was with the 250W XM 10Ks. We do have more color than with the 10Ks now though, so there is always that trade off. Like you we wanted to get the good growth then switch over to a bluer bulb for color, but as with most people we want both, and we want it now !!!!!

Sanjay is running the Geisman Coral over his tank :


Plot Giesemann 400W Coral SE 1 Icecap 400W Electronic N 157 11354 418 122 3.53 0.3775


They are pretty close to our Ushio 14Ks for PAR but alot lower in ?CCT. And the Ushios were alot easier to find (for me anyways). Ordering them from MD made things even simpler
Maybe by the time we are ready to swap bulbs the "next big thing" will be out and available . I had not read up on the 50K bulbs yet . I wonder how many that are already out would fall into that category ? I say that because alot in Sanjay's database list a CCT of 0 which means it was too high to measure. 25K or so seems to have been the top end that he measured to, so I wonder how many of those bulbs would rate in the 50K range ?

Matt, I see that the Helios 20K has a ppfd of 119, that would be a roughly 30% drop in PAR for us .


Decisions, decisions, decisions *sigh*

[jnarowe]

check out Custom Aquatic when buying lamps.

[Sparkss]

Thanks Jonathan.. I checked but no Aquaconnect bulbs

One other thing that I wanted to post, and something I have seen other threads about, was that I felt that our 400W 14K bulb looked brighter than our 250W 10K bulb. Now, before you all go off about "Of course a 400W will look brighter than a 250W" I want to state that the PAR on the 400W bulb/ballst combo was 20% or so less than the 205W bulb/ballast combo in question, so it should have looked darker towards the bottom of the tank, but it appeared brighter, albiet only slightly so. I can only attribute that to the blue spectrum penetrating further and better than yellow of the 10K. But the growth for us has always still been better with the 10K bulbs, so that contradicts the theory that the bluer bulbs have more usable/penetrating light for the corals to use. There was a thread back couple of years ago on another reef forum that speculated about the 14K/20K bulbs and their affect on coral growth, etc. But that was before we had years of real world results to compare them up against..

I know it was stated that the AC 14Ks look similar to the Phoenix, which is a very blue bulb, but I have to disagree since the PPFD is quite different (IIR), so the AC should look brighter, and likely better ?

[jnarowe]

I have never seen it written that bluer bulbs offer more usable/penetration. All I have seen is that it more or less better represents the spectrum that corals live with naturally. I went with the 20K 1000W lamps for the following reasons:

1. I didn't want to mess with actinics. OK, there, I said it!

2. I figured that the higher wattage would make up for the loss in PAR.

3. I wanted to save on long-term electrical costs by using these lamps on movers. I have 3 - 1000W lamps vs. the typical 10 - 14 400W MH lamps used on a tank the size of mine.

4. I wanted to save on lamp replacement costs. I buy the Ushio 20K 1000W Colorlite lamps for about $150 x 3 = $450 per year, vs. $800 - $1000 per year for 400W lamps.

5. I wanted to be able to place corals, clams, and anemones anywhere in the tank. To-date, my anemones have never left the bottom of the tank loking for more light (except for the occassional lap by the PLTA).

So far, all of these goals have been met with the added benefit that my corals have had excellent color.

[Sparkss]

All fine reasons . But I don't think they apply to such a small tank as ours . Right now the 400W 14Ks do fine with the lighting. I may re-enable the light movers if I bail on the actinic VHOs that we have at the front of the tank. Moving to 1000K would more than double our electrical outlay for lighting. That is something that we are just not in a position to consider doing at this time .

It's too bad that Sanjay doesn't report on 1000W bulbs. I would love to see how they compare ppfd, cct and pf against the 400W bulb/ballast combos.

[jnarowe]

well, they just aren't popular enough in the hobby for him to spend the effort. One key issue I have is that I don't seem to be able to keep LPS alive for extended periods. I have had limited success in that I can keep hammers, frogspawn, fungia, and one, possibly a lobo, that doesn't seem to want to die. Other than that, nothing else, and all those are in lower light areas, which are not really low light by most reefers' standards.

[raddogz]

Oi! even more so for my itty bitty 120g (it's like a nano compared to the big guns)

I did find that the 400w compared to the 250w has the obvious deeper light penetration, but also has a better light spread as well so now I really don't need a middle light. I was considering adding a 250w DE pendant in the middle since I have a rather large glass center brace, but the 400w in the LA3 seemed to spread the expected 36" length of light so a middle smaller halide won't be needed (I hope).

[Sparkss]

Ok, well all of this talk and research drove me nuts. The more I looked at the tank the more yellow it seemed to me *sigh* (then again I could just need to run ozone/carbon ?).

I bought a pair of AC 14K 400W bulbs from IRISSERVICE (that credit card has been taking a beating lately *sigh* ). Hopefully I will be able to post some results next week

On a different note we had another fellow reefer stop out today to pick up some equipment that we had for sale. As often happens when reefers get together the gabbing ensued . I really enjoyed meeting and chatting up reefs with kurplunk today. You and your wife are always welcome Daniel

Back on the equipment track I had a long talk with Scott today about our skimmer. We changed a few things around with our plumbing and had to order a shorter skimmer body from him. The beautiful thing about his design is that changing out the skimmer body (to change the height) is a relatively simple task. The hardest part is going to be finding someplace to drain the skimmer to while I am changing out the bodies . The new skimmer will be 8" shorter. It might not sound like much when dealing with a 6.5'+ tall skimmer, but those 8" will allow is to better tune the skimmer and even increase the flow through our tank/sump. I can't say enough good about the customer service from Scott. He had offered to cut down our existing body for free (I just pay for shipping to and from him). But despite his generosity and willingness to work with us our best cvase scenario still would have put us without a skimmer for roughly 3 weeks... that was if nothing went wrong (IE child or other family member became ill, shipping issues, etc). So we decided the best option would be for us to outright buy a new body from Scott. The thing is that this is exactly what his skimmers were designed to do : Be flexible and able to modify their configuration to react to and meet any changing tank needs. I will post the progress of that endeavor as it unfolds

I also am considering adding ozone to our setup. We already have everything that we need, but just need to connect the output of the ozone reactor to the skimmer, but I really don't want to goof around with it until I get the new body on and the skimmer dialed back in. Too many variables and potential issues trying to change too much at once.

[IRISSERVICE]

Sweet setup

[mcurl98]

I believe Reefermadness uses 20k 400w Helios bulbs.

Frag Farmer uses them as well

Matt, I see that the Helios 20K has a ppfd of 119, that would be a roughly 30% drop in PAR for us

For me it was a 50% increase so it is working out well.
I've heard nothing but good things about the A/Cs-hope you love them. If you'd like I pass along a Helios to you right before I need to change them out so you can see the look. I wish Sanjay would test the Radium with the 400w IC. I can probably guess the PAR based on the 250 test but it would be nice to know for sure.

[Sparkss]

IRISSERVICE

Thanks. much appreciated . The bulbs from you are going to add to that "sweet setup", hopefully making it that much sweeter . So thank you for that

I just saw in your sig that you use an Aquatronica controller. Those are pretty sweet. I keep thinking I want a different controller. Our AC Jr does fine, but I would like to combine all of our different controllers, top off, switched outlets, etc into a single interface. There is alot to be said for separation of those components, but I am trying to "clean up the clutter" a bit. Some local reefers have custom DIY controllers, some even with touch screens (way sweet). I am just not sure the best way to go for our tank, especially since our budget is pretty well shot going into 2008 (what with the new skimmer body, new bulbs and the miraculous shrinking tank budget since the baby was born )

Matt

Ahh, I see. Right now PAR is almost more important than CCT since we only run 2 400W IC run lamps over our tank. That is alot of area for 2 bulbs to cover, in any reflector. On that note, and with more and more tanks being 36" or better in width (front to back depth), I wonder if any of the reflector manufacturers are working on a reflector with more spread ? Before with 18" - 24" wide tanks it just didn't make much sense, but these days the newer tanks just seem to be getting bigger. I think Jonathans is 5'. When you get ready to swap out that Helios, let me know. It would be interesting to compare them side by side against the AC. I would like to see just exactly what 40 PPFD difference looks like

[IRISSERVICE]

Actually i forgot to update signature, i went crawling back to neptune systems... The Aquatronica was very bad... I'm currentlly useing the Aqua controller III...

[Sparkss]

Ok, not alot of updates at this time. Livestock wise we had a coral fall over into several others. Our Paletta Blue never encrusted, even though it is 9+ months old and pretty large now (it was medium sized to begin with). So far no major damage from the stings, but only time will tell. And now I need to figure out where to relocate the coral to.

Planned updates :

AC bulbs (should arrive next Tuesday, according to UPS -- same day as Halo 3.. hhrrmmpphh)
More optimized skimmer body (no ETA yet from Scott, hopefully in a week or so, depending on his workload)
Add ozone to the skimmer (but not until after we get the new body installed and broken in)
Upgrade to the wireless Vortec drivers (no idea on eta here, maybe by the end of October ?)

We have high hopes that the cominbation of those modifications/upgrades will greatly improve the overall appearance and operation of our tank. Plus the general major maintenance that we will perform during those changes (IE: clean the reflectors when we change out the bulbs, wet vac the skimmer and possibly sump during the skimmer modifications, clean all Vortec wet ends when we upgrade drivers, etc).

On a related topic I was having a conversation with someone regarding the AC bulbs and their coloration. So me being me I went off and started studying spectral plots more in depth.

Keeping the wavelength data in mind :




There was an article a couple of years ago that proposed that UVA rays helped corals to a certain degree, even though it is widely accepted that the usable range for corals is 400 - 700 (the visible range), at least that is what I recall as being the usable spectrum by our corals. The possibility of using UVA is also why I exteneded the plots to cover from 350 to 750, as I was curious as to how the various bulbs fared in those areas. As for flourescing below 420 NM, there is significantly more "pop" between 450 and 470 than the whole of 350 through 420.

Here is a comparison between what we have now and what we should expect from the AquaConnect bulbs.



The power consumption should be pretty comparable as well as the PAR (within a few points either way on both). You can definitely see a much higher spike int he 450 NM (blue/actinic) range and a good bit less in the green (550 NM) and yellow (590 - 630 NM) ranges.

Now the big debate has been surrounding the ACs compared to Radiums. So I took a hard look at them also and here is what I came up with :



You can see that the AC bulb has a larger spike in the blue/actinic range and also has a larger spike down near the UVA range (320 - 400). Comparable through the green and yellow ranges with the AC bieng a little flat through the blue/green trasnition spectrum and lower in the reds than the Radium. Both have pretty comparable PAR (143 for AC and 147 for Radium). But the kicker is that the Radium takes 5.11 amps to push it while the AC uses only 3.56. That is a 43% increase to go from the AC to the Radium (to get comparable PAR). So if your electric bill to run the ACs was $100 per month, it would cost $143 to run the radiums. Not to mention that it is generally accepted (although never proven scientifically) that bulbs run off of HQIs burn out faster (need replacing sooner) than bulbs run off of Electronic Ballasts. So the clear choice to me is the AC, even though they cost a little more up front, they pay that back within the first 2 months (at least out here in Ca they do).

[raddogz]

Where to get Aqua Connects online that's my big mystery?

[tanya72806]

I get them online when needed

[Sparkss]

Here is where I found them (although we are actually getting ours from some extras that IRISSERVICE had)

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merch...y_Code=mh-400w

HTH

[hahnmeister]

The reason for the Radium being 5.11 amps is because its got a lower resistance... it is not HQI rated. It will have a very short, color-shifting life on a HQI ballast.

[Sparkss]

which is right in line with what I was saying about lifespan compared to the AC on an IC ballast .

[JohnL]

This thread was automatically split due to performance issues. You can find the rest of the thread here: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1211814