Don't people buy books anymore?

[Joshua1023]

I've got several reefers manuals..............right next to the toilet.

[joekr]

Calfo's book of coral propgation is excellent toilet reading...

[davocean]

He's right, we should buy more books so company's like Dunder Mifflin can stay in business!
"Best advice you've ever given me? Don't be an idiot, it changed my life" Dwight Shroot

[davidryder]

I guarantee you that reefcentral doesn't cost as much as they make from members' contributions.

Aside from that, it's funny that you posted a complaint about where posts should belong in the "Reef Discussion" forum. There is a separate forum for that sort of thing, you know?

[lsuberl]

I feel pretty qualified to answer the original question. When getting into this hobby a couple months ago, I asked online on the local reef forums about some good places to start and was quickly pointed to several books, like The Conscientious Aquarist, etc. etc., and was told I had no business getting into the hobby if I didn't read the books. So I bought several, and QUICKLY realized how out of date even a "current" book is. I mean, any book that references under gravel filters to any extent, and wet/dry filters as though they're cutting edge is no longer relevant. As soon I asked a question online after reading about these two things in the very books I was directed towards, people were all over me about how out-of-date those sorts of things are now. So, which is it? Read the books, or don't read the books?!?!?!? I was pretty frustrated by being chastised for not doing my homework, then being chastised for trying make use of the product of my homework.

In short, we shouldn't EVER complain about someone coming here for help. Its the very thing these boards were created for, and have undoubtedly prevented the suffering of COUNTLESS numbers of aquatic animals.

Just my $0.02 worth. Keep the change.

[tkeracer619]

Sure people still buy books. Though its more for personal knowledge than resolving an issue. Books cannot compete with the internet for problem solving.

This is my newest book about marine animals, 514 pages, though not all about reefs and more about the entire ocean.

Here is the book and some examples of what it looks like inside.

[dbrann11]

I lurk on this board more than anything, and did pay after about 6 months because i couldn't search. I also bought 2 regarded reef books, and like every has said, they were expensive and provided a good % of outdated material, though they are useful for information on particular organisms they are pretty much useless when it comes to gear. Its sort of like going to most LFS, mine told me that the absolute 1st thing i should get was a UV sterilizer even before a skimmer.
The information is very good here because there are a ton of people, some with good advice some with bad. But if you average out the responses you can get some reasonably intelligent information every time.

If you think it's bad here you should go to oscarfish.com, i had to stop because every 5th post was "I have an 8" O in a 20 gallon hex, how come he has HITH and won't eat" The other 4 posts were "why doesn't anyone use the search function".

The internet is convenient, a lot of people get involved in various levels of this hobby thinking its just a tank with water and some fish that you throw flakes at. They aren't interested in research, they're interested in a decoration. Generally they may post a "fix my problem" post most get defensive or angry when they get solid advice and some are converted to responsible keepers.

I entered the hobby through a friend, who i quickly (with 60 minutes of surfing) realised was an uneducated idiot. He had no idea why none of his fish lived more than a year. I tried to help but i was a newb and he didn't listen.

This forum has great potential and does great work converting people to dedicated hobbyists. Most of the coverts would never go spend $40 on a book for what they think will be a couple hundred bucks worth of fish tank, which means they aren't paying for a membership either, which means no searchie. Besides the fact that if they follow the book, have issues and post here, they will be flamed out of existence as mentioned above.

If you want to help the newbs, help 'em, if not, ignore the posts that you know will be repeats, silly, or otherwise undesirable, its usually pretty easy to tell.

[vessxpress1]

Well, I have to agree with the original poster. The reef discussion could be cleaned up quite a bit.

I have several books I read that I won't be selling any time soon. It's nice to be able to reference them when needed. I've found they are very valuable for livestock info, diseases, filter media info, algae info and IDs.

Equipment is usually lacking and outdated but what can you expect? Anyway, we have our own forum here for that stuff callled Lighting Filtration and other equipment, that most people I doubt ever use.

IMO, most of the other forums are probably under-used for the number of people on the site now. Many general questions are covered in the stickies, but are still posted over and over.

The search function has a long way to go.

[dc]

It's called socializing. If everyone read we wouldn't need to be here. I have a bookshelf full of books, I use them for photo id's or to simply look at the pictures.

[davidryder]

Originally posted by lsuberl
I feel pretty qualified to answer the original question. When getting into this hobby a couple months ago, I asked online on the local reef forums about some good places to start and was quickly pointed to several books, like The Conscientious Aquarist, etc. etc., and was told I had no business getting into the hobby if I didn't read the books. So I bought several, and QUICKLY realized how out of date even a "current" book is. I mean, any book that references under gravel filters to any extent, and wet/dry filters as though they're cutting edge is no longer relevant. As soon I asked a question online after reading about these two things in the very books I was directed towards, people were all over me about how out-of-date those sorts of things are now. So, which is it? Read the books, or don't read the books?!?!?!? I was pretty frustrated by being chastised for not doing my homework, then being chastised for trying make use of the product of my homework.

In short, we shouldn't EVER complain about someone coming here for help. Its the very thing these boards were created for, and have undoubtedly prevented the suffering of COUNTLESS numbers of aquatic animals.

Just my $0.02 worth. Keep the change.

Just because a book references a filtration method that is "out of date" by somebody's standard doesn't mean the book is no longer a good reference. Books, at least the ones I have, cover all/most of the different setups and equipment. They don't emphasize one over the other, they leave it up to the reader to choose the best setup based on their needs. My books are a good general information source.

You came here with at least the basic working knowledge of different filtration methods. I would rather address the advantages or specific questions of different filters than explain each one individually. The entirety of books don't become outdated. I can discern outdated information from not.

And BTW, I would love to see the reference to undergravel filters being "cutting edge". And The Conscientious MARINE Aquarist is considered to be the beginners bible by many.


^^^ Right from the book that was mentioned during the outdated rant: The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner


There aren't only two choices: "Don't read the books or read the books". That's an either or logic fallacy and there is a better alternative: read the books to get an understanding and overview of saltwater aquariums and use that education as a foundation to make good decisions.

[SDguy]

Clearly many of you have either fogotten or never experienced what it was like when all we had were a few books, and the LFS. Consider yourselves lucky.

[davidryder]

Originally posted by dc
It's called socializing. If everyone read we wouldn't need to be here. I have a bookshelf full of books, I use them for photo id's or to simply look at the pictures.

Books are what taught me the foundations of what I know. I still come here. All my questions aren't answered in books. And you're right, a big part of coming here is socializing. I always have questions that need to be answered, and I've never been criticized for asking a question. Anyway, books are a great resource, incredible foundation of knowledge, and look good in my library.

Everyone holds books at a different value, but to say they are of no value is IMO crazy.

[lsuberl]

And in that same book, davidryder, is the suggestion that bioballs might be a good idea, which is totally out of favor in the current hobby from what I've read. The references to UGF's and wet/dry's were in another book that I have here, also recommended as good for beginners. Pardon me if I choose not to quote/scan copyrighted material, but its definitely in these books.

My basic point is that this is a technology-driven hobby, with tremendous advances being made in lighting and filtration month by month. Speaking as a new hobbyist who was strongly directed to read the books before posting ignorant questions on message boards, I found the books to be somewhat confusing and inconsistent in terms of equipment (the profiles on the different aquatic species is certainly still current, as the fish obviously do not change as equipment does!!!). This being a hobby, not a science, there is no printed one-stop shop for really good information on equipment. The best source is these message boards, where a beginner like me can get large numbers of current opinions from users of current equipment.

If there are people, possibly like the originator of this post, who are tired of the questions and the dispensing of advice, I would invite that person to not read the questions, and not give condescending advice. I'm not here for a social gathering. I'm here for help with a complicated hobby, and the volume of information here can't even begin to be compared with an 8 year old text book.

[davidryder]

Originally posted by lsuberl
And in that same book, davidryder, is the suggestion that bioballs might be a good idea, which is totally out of favor in the current hobby from what I've read. The references to UGF's and wet/dry's were in another book that I have here, also recommended as good for beginners. Pardon me if I choose not to quote/scan copyrighted material, but its definitely in these books.

My basic point is that this is a technology-driven hobby, with tremendous advances being made in lighting and filtration month by month. Speaking as a new hobbyist who was strongly directed to read the books before posting ignorant questions on message boards, I found the books to be somewhat confusing and inconsistent in terms of equipment (the profiles on the different aquatic species is certainly still current, as the fish obviously do not change as equipment does!!!). This being a hobby, not a science, there is no printed one-stop shop for really good information on equipment. The best source is these message boards, where a beginner like me can get large numbers of current opinions from users of current equipment.

If there are people, possibly like the originator of this post, who are tired of the questions and the dispensing of advice, I would invite that person to not read the questions, and not give condescending advice. I'm not here for a social gathering. I'm here for help with a complicated hobby, and the volume of information here can't even begin to be compared with an 8 year old text book.

I would disagree slightly on the inconsistency of information in books being greater than the inconsistency of information of forums. If you ask the best type of filtration to use you are going to get a lot of different responses. Just as lighting, sand beds, skimmer TYPES, dosing methods. There is a great division on message boards betweens schools of thought on the different methods to go about setting up/running a saltwater aquarium. MOST books keep the topics covered on a fairly basic level as an introduction to the different methods.

As far as technology, I would agree that great advances have been made, but in terms of years, not months IMO. Metal halides, skimmers, wet/dry filters, sumps, refugiums, and all the basic equipment recommended for aquariums has been around for quite a long time. There is a lot of debate as to which is the most ideal setup. And I think that a lot of different types of setups can be made to work.

Please don't take my frustration personally, I think the internet is one of the biggest reasons we have advanced so much in the past ten years. And you're right - there are probably a lot of bad books out there. And books covering setups that were published more than 7-10 years ago probably have some pretty funny information in them. But check out Reef Central Book Recommendations. All those books are almost inarguably fantastic books written on the hobby.

[[17]shawn[17]]

well as a 16yearold i have to say
reading books is so overrated these days lol

[Mr_Jarhead]

As far as searching goes - if one knows how to do it properly it works very well, here on RC and elsewhere. Sure you may have to pay a small amount of $ here, but IMO it's worth it. I still think it comes down to a lack of computer skills. examples aof searching properly are when to use a " or, and, or but, those basic things which can make a huge difference in what your results are. Sure it can always be better, but those looking for the info can also be more diligent.

[Misled]

Originally posted by SDguy
Clearly many of you have either fogotten or never experienced what it was like when all we had were a few books, and the LFS. Consider yourselves lucky.

I remember it well also. Still have about 10 years of FAMA and about 30 books. While all done before 2000, the info in some of them can't be found anywhere else, (except in the minds of RC members that have been around). I can also say the search feature has worked fine for me the few times I've used it and I've not payed for it. The thing you need to understand is when there are alot of us here, things slow down. Before you search check how many users are online, or search through google and use reef central in your search.

[davidryder]

Originally posted by Misled
I remember it well also. Still have about 10 years of FAMA and about 30 books. While all done before 2000, the info in some of them can't be found anywhere else, (except in the minds of RC members that have been around). I can also say the search feature has worked fine for me the few times I've used it and I've not payed for it. The thing you need to understand is when there are alot of us here, things slow down. Before you search check how many users are online, or search through google and use reef central in your search.

I agree! And I think that the vast amount of knowledge that experienced hobbyists have come with experience coupled with a good collection of books.

[lsuberl]

I would also say that the limited search function of this site contributes to the overabundance of questions being asked. And the same questions being asked over and over. Some have figured out how to search the site through Google, but there are plenty that don't know how to do that, and there are plenty that may not be able to afford the registration fee (we have a 16 y/o posting in this very thread who is obviously interested in the hobby). I think opening up the capabilities of the search function would help quite a bit!

Hey, no prob on the frustrations. We're all here to talk and discuss these types of issues. I just know that as a new entry into this hobby, I did not find the help I needed in the books!

[GreshamH]

Originally posted by SDguy
No offense to those mentioned, but NG photographs are in a class of their own, IMO.

And no offense meant towards you, but, several have been published in NG They're considerred to be some of the worlds top underwater photographers, even by NG This trade is not the only place those fellows publish.

[Frick-n-Frags]

Originally posted by SDguy
Clearly many of you have either fogotten or never experienced what it was like when all we had were a few books, and the LFS. Consider yourselves lucky.

Martin Moe was da man. I still refer to that book for numbers.

the "Lab Technician's Reference" has nothing to do with reefing, except for not killing yourself with the chemistry part of it. Everyone should own that, especially if you never had chem or biology labs in school.

the rest of the books I have hold value by being ID references etc.
Borneman, Veron, the algae, invert and fish books etc.

[Paul B]

I think it is a sad world when we can say books are no longer needed. Of course I am on the web and I want to learn all that I can. I have been in this hobby probably longer than anyone here and I have almost all of the books written on aquariums. The information in them is obviousely outdated but even outdated information is information and if you learn why it is outdated you will be a better aquarist. To just read a post here and say something like wet dry's or undergravel filters are useless says to me that you don't know as much as you think you do. Wet dry's serve a purpose and so do undergravel filters. How many of you have even had an undergravel filter, or a wet dry? For those of you that did, did you have it for five, ten or fifteen years or a week?
I myself run a reverse UG filter, my reef was set up when Nixon was president. Does it work? well Duh.
A wet dry is also the best way to go for a fish only. Knowlege is never a waste of time even if it is outdated. You need knowlege to even know it is outdated and you should know what made it outdated and why it was considered state of the art at one time.
I use my "outdated" books almost every week for dosages of medications, and identification of animals that I rarely see.
I also have fish autopsy books that were printed in the fiftees. Fish insides still look the same as they always did. Could you find any information here about what the liver of a healthy hippo tang is supposed to look like? I know almost no one even cares about that type of stuff but when a fish dies for no apparent cause do you just flush it and go out and get another one? Of course you do but I want to know why it died and I can only find out that information in books.
Don't get me wrong, the internet and magazines are definately current. I get all three major aquarium magazines myself and have even authored articles in all of them but I originally got most of my information from books then I built on that information by SCUBA diving. Now go search the web
Paul

[davidryder]

Originally posted by Paul B
I think it is a sad world when we can say books are no longer needed. Of course I am on the web and I want to learn all that I can. I have been in this hobby probably longer than anyone here and I have almost all of the books written on aquariums. The information in them is obviousely outdated but even outdated information is information and if you learn why it is outdated you will be a better aquarist. To just read a post here and say something like wet dry's or undergravel filters are useless says to me that you don't know as much as you think you do. Wet dry's serve a purpose and so do undergravel filters. How many of you have even had an undergravel filter, or a wet dry? For those of you that did, did you have it for five, ten or fifteen years or a week?
I myself run a reverse UG filter, my reef was set up when Nixon was president. Does it work? well Duh.
A wet dry is also the best way to go for a fish only. Knowlege is never a waste of time even if it is outdated. You need knowlege to even know it is outdated and you should know what made it outdated and why it was considered state of the art at one time.
I use my "outdated" books almost every week for dosages of medications, and identification of animals that I rarely see.
I also have fish autopsy books that were printed in the fiftees. Fish insides still look the same as they always did. Could you find any information here about what the liver of a healthy hippo tang is supposed to look like? I know almost no one even cares about that type of stuff but when a fish dies for no apparent cause do you just flush it and go out and get another one? Of course you do but I want to know why it died and I can only find out that information in books.
Don't get me wrong, the internet and magazines are definately current. I get all three major aquarium magazines myself and have even authored articles in all of them but I originally got most of my information from books then I built on that information by SCUBA diving. Now go search the web
Paul

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Too many people just want quick answers.