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  #26  
Old 09/28/2007, 12:21 AM
cayars cayars is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by cd77
HowardW -- This stuff???

cayars -- Are there any studies on how consistent one particular brand of salt is from one batch to the next? Do any of these companies create their salts in multiple/different locations? If these companies regularly produce batches that yield different results from one batch to the next, then the results of such an experiment might not mean much. That being said, is PayPal ok?
Not that I'm aware of on any study. To the best of my knowledge all salts are manufactured at the same location/plant. Actually some different brands are even manufactured in the same plants.

However if enough people get on board and we have excess funds we could run the tests again in 3 months or so with different batches and check for any differences. Something along those lines.

While I'm sure there are slight variances I don't think it would be enough for us to even notice with out test kits. Most of the "off" values people get IMHO are from settlement in the buckets/bags.
Most people just start at the top of the bucket and work their way down and because of settlement the bucket could have more calcium for example when you first start and be less toward the bottom of the bucket.

That's why I always completely mix every bucket I get for about 15 minutes (dry powder) and then move the salt into storage bags weighed out specifically for X gallons each. Then when I'm ready to mix salt I fill with water (marked water line) and slowly pour in the salt while it mixed. Near perfect 35% salinity every time and consistent for the whole bucket.

I added you to the list and PayPal will be fine when the time comes.

Carlo
  #27  
Old 09/28/2007, 12:33 AM
cd77 cd77 is offline
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Thank you
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  #28  
Old 09/28/2007, 12:45 AM
pledosophy pledosophy is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrBegalke
cd77 - yes, that is catalina water. in CA, AZ, NV, it's delivered to LFS/public aquariums by the semi... i used to to use it when i lived there, great stuff.
The company in California making the delieveries is Ocean N Motions. They get there water from Scripts in San Diego. The water is filtered before it goes on the truck. JME

Their prices aren't too bad either, we paid .30 a gallon.
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  #29  
Old 09/28/2007, 07:29 AM
DrBegalke DrBegalke is offline
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multiple studies would be interesting, certainly something we can do down then road.

i'm planning to send a sample of my freshly made saltwater (i'm using 50/50 IO/oceanic right now) to AWT just to see..

i received a reference kit from them the other day, was shipped very quickly.
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  #30  
Old 09/28/2007, 09:14 AM
USC-fan USC-fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrBegalke

i'm planning to send a sample of my freshly made saltwater (i'm using 50/50 IO/oceanic right now) to AWT just to see..

i received a reference kit from them the other day, was shipped very quickly.
I think this is the only way something like this will happen. Everyone just send out the salt they are using. I plan to sign up for monthly testing. I could use one of my tests to do a fresh batch of Reef Crystals.

It would be great if this company also did SG with these tests. Without that it could really mess up the results.
  #31  
Old 09/28/2007, 10:32 AM
cayars cayars is offline
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Yea I agree. Salinity is an easy thing to check. Heck they could pick up a Pinpoint Salinity meter cheap which is good enough. Then people could compare their hydro/refracto meters to the tested report.

Carlo
  #32  
Old 09/28/2007, 10:59 AM
tkeracer619 tkeracer619 is offline
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I got $10 bucks on it, send me a pm when you need it. Can we get a 50/50 Oceanic/IO mix into there. Several of us use it (including me) and are curious.
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  #33  
Old 09/28/2007, 12:37 PM
GreshamH GreshamH is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by pledosophy
The company in California making the delieveries is Ocean N Motions. They get there water from Scripts in San Diego. The water is filtered before it goes on the truck. JME

Their prices aren't too bad either, we paid .30 a gallon.
There's multiple companies and only one get's the Scripps. LB Harbor is rumored to be the other source
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  #34  
Old 09/28/2007, 12:39 PM
GreshamH GreshamH is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by cayars
[I added you to the list and PayPal will be fine when the time comes.

Carlo
You can add me as well I thrown down $100 if that helps you get this ball rolling that much quicker
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  #35  
Old 09/28/2007, 12:39 PM
cayars cayars is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by tkeracer619
I got $10 bucks on it, send me a pm when you need it. Can we get a 50/50 Oceanic/IO mix into there. Several of us use it (including me) and are curious.
PM sent
  #36  
Old 09/28/2007, 12:46 PM
cayars cayars is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by GreshamH
You can add me as well I thrown down $100 if that helps you get this ball rolling that much quicker
Well yea, I'm sure it will help! But as we get the proper amount of people involved, I'd want to make sure you got most of it back.

Maybe we should "hold back" the results for 30-60 days before everyone not contributing get's to see them them.

Carlo
  #37  
Old 09/28/2007, 12:54 PM
GreshamH GreshamH is offline
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I'm more interested in the results then getting money back I've worked in this industry long enough to know when it's proper to give back, and nows the time
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  #38  
Old 09/28/2007, 01:03 PM
cd77 cd77 is offline
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How many people have stepped forward willing to contribute so far, Carlo?
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  #39  
Old 09/28/2007, 09:52 PM
DrBegalke DrBegalke is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by USC-fan
I think this is the only way something like this will happen. Everyone just send out the salt they are using. I plan to sign up for monthly testing. I could use one of my tests to do a fresh batch of Reef Crystals.

It would be great if this company also did SG with these tests. Without that it could really mess up the results.
SG should be easy to test. I think the best method is to have someone test as many of the different salts using the same conditions (same RO/DI water, same refractometer/meter, etc.)...

Then we can test or own samples against that for reproducibility.
  #40  
Old 09/28/2007, 11:36 PM
pledosophy pledosophy is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by GreshamH
There's multiple companies and only one get's the Scripps. LB Harbor is rumored to be the other source
Kentmourth is another source as well as UCSB. Baes on what I've seen from the LB harbor, I'd be surprised it the water was "clean". To many boats. It's quite the industrial center.
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  #41  
Old 09/29/2007, 01:04 AM
jamesdawson jamesdawson is offline
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Way cool Gresham!

Put me down for $10 (let me know when and how, paypal would be great).

Also, it would be really nice to include KZs Reefer's Best Salt since its the most expensive salt out there and claims to basically mix to NSW standards. Hopefully someone can supply some because I don't have any and KZ's importer (Captive Oceans) is also out for a while.

James
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  #42  
Old 09/29/2007, 07:53 AM
cayars cayars is offline
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People willing to contribute
cayars
Antman
Boomer
HowardW
Dr Begalke
tkeracer619
jamesdawson
GreshamH for up to $100

KZs Reefer's Best Salt would also be a good one to get done if we can get a hold of it.

Carlo
  #43  
Old 09/29/2007, 08:51 AM
USC-fan USC-fan is offline
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oh i'm down for this also.....

Even if we can't raise funds to do all the brands i will still send out what i use[RC]!!
  #44  
Old 09/29/2007, 09:05 AM
annietye annietye is offline
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I can chip in a bit. This sounds like a great experiment!

Annie =)
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  #45  
Old 09/29/2007, 06:44 PM
DrBegalke DrBegalke is offline
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Good news, I found another contributor!

I emailed aquariumwatertesting.com letting them know of our basic plan, and here is what I received back:

"Hello Dr.

Thank you for your business and your consideration on this analysis project.

We would not only be interested in being involved, we would be happy to donate our time, facilities and resources to compile this data. You guys don't need to gather funds for the testing or the provsion of the salt mixes them selves. We will be happy to take care of all that. We had a meeting this morning to discuss this and we decided that it would be best if the salt was mixed here to remove as many variables as possible from the equation.

What we would like for you to provide us is a complete specification for the project. Our thoughts are to run the 14 parameter panel on each of the 15 (including Catalina) salt varieties you listed on the thread. We think that buying one bag of each brand from the east coast and one from the west coast and testing both bags might yield some information on relative consistency from batch to batch. So we are thinking two panels for each brand. Tell us, though, about any details that will be important to you in terms of the testing procedure (concentrations, time after mixing before testing, etc...).

We look forward to working with you to produce a truly valuable data set! Maybe this could become an annual review to account for formula changes and new market entrants. Thank you again for considering us and for signing up for a Reference Kit, we really appreciate your support!

Jeremy Redmond
AquariumWaterTesting.com"


So please chime in with your thoughts on the specifics for the testing protocol and I will get them to Jeremy at AWT!
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  #46  
Old 09/29/2007, 06:48 PM
cd77 cd77 is offline
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Can't think of anything right off hand, but way to go doctor! Outstanding!
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  #47  
Old 09/29/2007, 06:56 PM
SDguy SDguy is offline
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I would think a standard salinity (1.025-6), standard temp (not sure if temp affects any of the tests they plan to do), 48 hours of mixing, with the last 24 of those with aeration....

An excellent venture. Kudos to the Dr.
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  #48  
Old 09/29/2007, 06:59 PM
DrBegalke DrBegalke is offline
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Chris, thanks! I'm excited.

Here is what I was thinking:

1) Test the RO/DI water, try and use the same batch for all the salts.
2) Mix to 1.025 SG.
3) question about how long to mix the water? I usually mix for 1 to 2 hours... but I know some people mix longer.
4) question if temp is important? i usually adjust the temp, but i don't know/don't think this would effect too much...
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  #49  
Old 09/29/2007, 07:02 PM
kysard1 kysard1 is offline
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Don't let the salt companies know about this.
  #50  
Old 09/29/2007, 07:05 PM
DrBegalke DrBegalke is offline
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Peter, thanks! I have the same questions about the temperature... I would think as long as they are all the same (ie all at room temperature) then it shouldn't effect the results. If we tried to control the temp, that would probably introduce more variabilty into things...

kysard1: we shouldn't have to contact the salt companies
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