finally beginning my 480g 5'x5'x30" SPS Reef Tank

[thirschmann]

I agree that the Vortech pumps sound very promising. The reason why I chose the Tunze's is because I can attached them to 2 wavyseas and get even more random flow out of the wavyseas. I have considered adding 2 votech powerheads below the closed loop intakes in the future if I need them or if I don't like the look of the tunzes attached to the wavyseas, will just have to wait and see.

The manifold will be run of a dart in the sump room and will draw water from the main sump. I am working on some sketchup ideas now and will post them once I finish them up. Thank you for the tip on placing the manifold above the tank.

jnarowe - I plan on using 3x 1" wavy seas, two in opposite corners and 1 in the middle or in a third corner to provide random flow for the returns (the sump returns driven by the hammerhead).

[jnarowe]

I look forward to seeing how you set up the manifold, and I am a big fan of the wavy seas when positioned out of site. They are nice additions and I believe provide nice gas exchange. I have a local reefer buddy with a smallish tank, maybe 180g, and he has one in each corner and then one mounted from a Eurobrace that blows into the front glass with about a 180 deg. cycle. I like it a lot.

PM if you want to discuss the manifold, and for God's sake, put in some extra valves. I capped the end of mine with a nice schedule 80 BV in case I need further expansion. I am very happy with it.

[thirschmann]

First crack at my sump room plumbing... let me know if I screwed up big anywhere. The chiller is in the back left corner in the pictures but will be move to a better ventilated area.

Enjoy..

[thirschmann]

Forgot to mention that the drain ends are shown correctly in most instances, there will be anti siphon designs incorporated during the build.

[EBOLII]

man nice pictures....those concept images are sweet! Plumbing appears to be in order [no expert]. I am tagging along to see it come together

Anti siphon designs? Have you already addressed what each tank will contain? Wich one is LR and etc. Why not have skimmer inline first?

[jnarowe]

Questions/suggestions: Please keep in mind that these are just observations made by a guy on mind-bending drugs looking at a rather complicated set of drawings. Too complicated if you ask me.

1. Why dual refugium feeds?
2. Move the manifold from the Dart above the water level of the refugium and make the refugium feed(s) above the water line.
3. Change the Dart to a Hammerhead.
4. The OM 2-way for the frag tank could be replaced with a Vortech and a single inbound flow, also above the water line.
5. Move the chiller OUTSIDE!
6. Try to incorporate a floss shelf where the pink return lines come in from the display. You have plenty of baffles etc. and having a floss shelf will improve water clarity and make swapping out much easier than socks. I would recommend the "washable" filter material from Aquatic-Eco. It is the best I have found and worth every penny.
7. Ask yourself, "What can be removed and still make the system run well?"


The drawings are fabulous BTW, and I think you could lose most of your baffles.

[hatfielj]

Looks great! What a system!
How big is your RO/DI storage tank going to be? It looks kind of small for that big of a system. I would go as big as you have room for that way you won't have to fill it as often. I would aslo reccomend moving your chiller at least to another part of the house if not outside. Those suckers put out a TON of heat and will turn that room in to a sauna in no time. If you have a garage or attic or crawlspace where you can put it that would be much better. Otherwise your a/c is going to run constantly.
Nice work so far! Keep showing pictures!

[cbui2]

awesome work no need to even take real pics, also on your calcium reactor by being toward the back will you be able to have access to change out media or maintenance? looks like its behind a few plumbing lines.

[invincible569]

Your designs are outstanding!!

[erics3000]

Wow..You have no problems with sketch.... Looks sweet.

The one thing I would do is to try and have all plumbing lines behind the stands legs. It looks a little cleaner to me. But that is just my thoughts.

Man this is going to be one very sweeeeeeeeeeeetttt setup....

[jnarowe]

I would love to be able to map out my system like that. I think it would answer a lot of questions and maybe help me make improvements.

[erics3000]

Johnathan you should take some time and become familiar with sketchup. I would love to see it !!!!!! TIME TIME just never enough....I guess that is why we are all up this late. Oh yeah that and we are all adicts!!!!!!!!

[thirschmann]

First of all thank you for your responses and please let me apologize for my crack head design. Not sure what I was thinking when I completed this thing and thought it would work well. Good thing it is only digital and not my actually setup. That's what a get for working on this after drinking a little. Now..

EBOLII - thank you very much. The top large tank is a 180g refugium. The tank underneath it is a 210g sump. The smallest tank is a 40g breeder tank and the tank under the skimmer is 120g for emergency water changes and extra water volume. I have not tied this tank into the system yet but will use of the the feeds from the manifold and a basic overflow into the sump to use it. The skimmer is not inline because of my height restrictions with the drains from the tank. The skimmer would have to be sitting on the floor for a gravity feed and I would rather not go that direction. Thank you for your input.

janrowe

1) no damn clue why I did that
2)Will the head pressure form the manifold being up that high influence the flow through it significantly?
3) was planning on upgrading dart to barracuda, not sure I will need the flow from a hammerhead
4)will look into the cortech powerhead
5) not sure why I stuck that chiller back there, I was already planning on having an outside chiller as dicsussed earlier. Just got to into the design thing and didn't think enough.
6)floss shelf is a goo idea, maybe with a pull out drawer uilt in to make it easier. You are right about the excess baffles, have removed them in my updated design.
7)you tell me what I could remove. I get caught up in effectiviness of design and forget about efficiency sometimes.

Thanks again for your input. This is why I use sketch up so that I can brainstorm different configuations in 3d rather then on paper, its pretty easy to learn, just spend a little time screwing with it.

hatfielj - My RO/DI tank is 140g, the one in the diargram is not up to spec. I am considering adding a second one in the future if necessary. Thank you for your input.

cbui2 - You are right about the calcium reactor , another one of those things that I didn't catch while working on it for some reason. I have corrected this in my next update. Let me know what you think of the new location. Thank you.

invincible569 - thank you very much. definetly helps to get my ideas across and to brainstorm further.

erics300 - I have tried to hide some of hte plumbing in my update. I like leaving a lot of the plumbing exposed so that it is easily accessible for maintance. Once everything is installed it is going to be hard to get behind those larger tanks. I am trying to keep everything excessible from the front. Now that I think about it I should probably leave some room behind so that I can get back there if I need to. Thanks for your enthusiasm and input


Thank you for everyone's input and please keep the comments and criticisms coming.

[jnarowe]

no criticism intended as i hope you understand. Your ability to map out your system gives you a serious leg up on what your final design will entail and with the help of many who have made mistakes before you, your system will be much more efficient and easier to maintain.

1. Not needed. Refugium flow through typically is on the low side to allow pods and such to flourish before getting flushed into the system. This is one of my favorite areas of my system and I like the volume you have afforded it. Keep in mind that most large tank owners have been moving away from fuges with the knowledge that unless they are extremely large and well maintained, they do not provide much nutrient export. With that said, IMO, every little bit counts, and I enjoy mine as a protective enclave more so than nutrient export. It's a great place to breed live bearers and provide food for your main display, as well as to put animals that might not be socially accepted in the main tank.

2. Nevermind the perceived head pressure of raising the manifold...think about it as saving your system from flooding out during a power outage. Having the manifold above the water line, with at least one open ended feed as suggested in my other comments, will ensure that water will not back siphon and flood your tank room, removing all the water from any number of your tanks.

3. Go with the Hammerhead. You get lots more flow with room for degradation, can feed more equipment which you will inevitably add, and you should have a return line T'd immediately following the output to help with priming and evening out water levels in these various tanks. You are always welcome to PM regardig any of these issues, as I am sure many others following your build would also agree to.

4. The Vortech will provide variable flow to the frag tank that will be invaluable in controlling and acclimating various animals with different flow/light requirements.

5. enough said. Except what is the ground temp. where you are? There are many methods other than chillers to be used that are more electrically efficient. One important design to consider is a ground loop such as Reef Haven's. One of my extra valves off my manifold is reserved for this such cooling method should I decide I need it. Give this some thought before jumping on the chiller bandwagon. With considerably fewer parts to malfunction, I believe this is a safer way to go, and I can point you towards very good pricing on the heat exchanger.

6. pull out floss shelfs are golden. I use Aquatic-Eco Washable filter material and AFAIAC, it' sthe best you can get. It IS truly reusable and many rungs above what is generally sold in the hobby.

7. While I am a huge fan of how skillfully you drew up your plans, the first thing I would remove other than the aforementioned baffles, is virtually all the elbows. You have a sweet tank room and zero need for all that hard plumbing. Use flexible PVC and lighten the load on all of your equipment. It's much easier to install, and WAY easier to remove for cleaning. For instance, the four 1" return lines coming off my manifold are all flex PVC eliminating a large number of friction causing angles. Each one terminates with a union and a BV at the tank, so the valve can be shut and the tubing removed for cleaning. Each one can be done independently without shutting down the return pump. The manifold end of each line also terminates with a union and either a BV or a gate valve.

Here is an early stage pic of my return manifold:



Since this pic, more equipment has been installed, but I still have two extra valves for further expansion, including a ground loop if needed. The verticle line on the right is the output from my Hammerhead. Sure I lose a liitle to head pressure, but I gain significantly using the flex PVC, whle ensuring that my tank does not drain from the return lines during a power outage. If I were to buy a tank new, I would have no holes in it whatsoever, but this was a used tank and I decided to utilize four of the existing holes.

You will notice a clear PVC one-way valve. These are considered throughout the hobby as dangerous and prone to failure, but I put one in anyway primarily as a site glass to see if my return pump is operating normally. The Hammerhead is so quiet, I cannot hear if it is on. The line in the very top-right corner goes to my fuge and is above the water line. This provides a syphon break to the manifold. When the power goes out, the only water I lose is what is in the overflow and it goes into the sump.

Also keep in mind that I run my entire system off the one Hammerhead, which brings me to my third item to remove. Do you really need two main pumps? I run Vortechs for display flow and one Hammerhead for all equipment and return. I do keep a spare, but when was the last time you heard of an entire 1200+g system running on one main pump?

Give this some thought. Simpler is better. Flexible is better. Less noise, easier to work with, much less gluing, and you can always keep a coil at the ready.

[thirschmann]

labeled

[jnarowe]

are you going to use a LiterMeter for top-off? I am stepping up to a 200g RO/DI container as I find that during the summmer months, my RO/DI filters are running nearly constantly.

[EBOLII]

Man I do like this. Concept design is so much easier than finding out the hard way.
This thread gives me some great ideals.

Questions though…the 40g frag feed line.....does it end at the 210g sump? It is hard to tell concerning behind the systems. Actually it is not a feed line.....the exit line.....

I was asking about the skimmer because of the efficiency theory about it being first. Thought that was important. Because of my space problems a similar type design to what you have here is way more practical. So I am interesting in hearing your design thoughts

I see you moved the Calcium reactor what about the Fluidized Reactors? I get that from your first posted pages? Do you have future plans concerning Kalkwasser Stirrers?

Those are just a few questions for now

[invincible569]

What program did you use again?

[EBOLII]

SketchUp...it can be found here

http://sketchup.google.com/

[thirschmann]

Just want to quickly mention that this is my first crack at a tank this size and only my third tank ever, any criticism you might have are appreciated. The point of this is to think through everything ten times so I don't have to worry about it later. Thanks for your input.

jnarowe -
1) agreed
2) will make the decision on the manifold when I am putting it all together, then I can get a better feed as to accessibility.
3) Hammerhead sounds like a plan. What do you mean about T it off and what are the advantages. Just unsure of what you are refering to.
4) seriously considering the vortech
5)I plan on having a backup chiller just in case. I am in florida so the chiller option is the only one I have looked at. I plan on running exhaust fans as well as cooling fans on most of the tanks to help with the heat.
6)I have never used filter floss but will look into it when I get back. I am tired of the hassle of filter bags so this might be a good option.
7) I plan on running a lot more flex line then I have indicated. It is almost impossible to depict flex line in sketch up so I just given hard line examples. The final execution will probably look completely different anyways. Double union ball valves will be used extensively throught the build to help with maintanence in the future.

I plan on leaving at least 3 extra gate valves on my manifold for future use. This allows me to explore my options. I have seen your manifold on your build thread and that is what I have been building my manifold off of the entire time.

I have considered using one hammerhead for everything but I want a seperate pump to run the returns (to both the display and frag tank) as this water is drawn from the end of the sump. The intake for the equipment is drawn from the beginning of the sump and what I consider to be dirty water. The return pump only draws "clean" water back. This "clean" water is also right after the refugium returns so any pods that drop down will be sucked straight into the return rather then being forced through a manifold and then into a skimmer or something else. I want a hammerhead for the main return because I want to push a rather large water volume through my sump and back into the display. I might downgrade to a barracuda but I like the idea of just turning down the gate valve to compensate.

I agree that simpler is better and there is less to worry about. I am trying to simplify as much as possible while still using the equipment I want. I certainly want the system to be as flexible as possible, this is the main reason for the manifold.

Yes I am going to use a LMIII as I have one left over from my 120g. I'm looking forward to the continous water change option.

Thank you once again for taking the time to give me your input.


EBOLII - This is fun to get the concepts out and deisgned. Let me know if oyu need any advice or help with sketch upo.

The 40g feeds into the first compartment in the sump. The same place that the main display drains go into. This way the frag tank water will be processed again before moving on.

The skimmers feed line, and the feed for the rest of the manifold, is right after the first compartment and it returns after in the larger third compartment. In this way most of the water that comes from the display will be pulled into the manifold and will then be returned to the sump later after splitting of to the rest of the equipment. I will post a picture later of how I imagine the sump will work effectively. I think the skimmer will get the dirtiest water possible from its keep location.

The fluidized reactors will be placed with in the main sump. I have not add then to my updated diagrams yet. The will be placed in the largest sump compartment right where the brown feed line ends in the diagram.

Thanks for the input, keep hitting me up with anything that comes to mind.


invincible569 - if you want any advice or help with sketch up let me know. I have done a lot of 3d work in the past and know how to use these environments fairly well. Also there is a lot of premade pieces that can be found online to make stuff easier. To make the skimmer I simply modified a model of a AP702 I found online.

[jnarowe]

3) Hammerhead sounds like a plan. What do you mean about T it off and what are the advantages. Just unsure of what you are refering to.

Hard to get a pic of mine, but just after the output on my return pump, I have a T with a valve that allows me to vary water going back into the sump. What happens is when desiging such a system, invariably something will either be over-powered or under powered and being able to return water to an area that is low helps out a lot. Also, when starting up a large pump with head/backpressure, if you have a valve you can open right after the output, it primes in just a couple seconds and then you close the valve most or all of the way. The way mine is set up is that I have a 1.5" flex PVC line coming off that T and back inot the outbound sump. That helps me maintain equal levels in the sumps avoiding drawing air into the display. It's not much flow, but is variable so I can adjust if needed.

I hate socks too...

[Fliger]

Originally posted by thirschmann
I agree that the Vortech pumps sound very promising. The reason why I chose the Tunze's is because I can attached them to 2 wavyseas and get even more random flow out of the wavyseas. I have considered adding 2 votech powerheads below the closed loop intakes in the future if I need them or if I don't like the look of the tunzes attached to the wavyseas, will just have to wait and see.

I haven't read the whole thread but I have a feeling after you get these two up, you will realize that any more flow would be unnecessary. I have had my Tunze on a WS+ for quite some time and its fantastic.

[Cadwalader]

Tom tank looks great. Sorry to hear about the problems traveling and getting home. When do you think you will get back? I hope you can get back to help me set up my new tank, but if not it should be up and running when you get back. Also Matt said your 120 had a small hicup. What happened and is everything alright??

Equipment room looks great and the tank is gona be amazing. If you need any help with getting it set up or with taking care of the 120 I would be glad to help once I get back down to Orlando on Aug 16th.

get back to the states so we can get this beast up and running.

[thirschmann]

Jonathon - Good thing I have someone with your wealth of knowledge to help me out.

Fliger - looking forward to seeing the results.. hope I'm impressed.

Henry - What's up man? Hope you've had a good summer. I hope to be back the 5th of September. Start a thread and I've give you any help you want on your tank, its waiting for your in my garage. Yeah Matt crapped the bed while watching my tank. Ernie is not optimistic, says it was up at 90 degress with 3.5 salinity aside from the fact that some of my fish were starving... not so happy. I think most of your corals made it but I have not been at home to take a personal inventory.

Can't wait to get my tank started up and yes your help with running my 120 would be very much appreciated. Thanks man and drop me a line sometime.


Now for a sump update for you picture junkies. Let me know if you have any ideas for making this thing simpler/better.

[jnarowe]

I don't even know where to begin...those drawings make me dizzy.