nitrate

christa · #1 08/04/2007, 03:10 PM

I just can't seem to get my nitrates down anymore than around 60 on a salifert kit. I have a refugium with macroalgae, a good skimmer, and in the main tank a thin layer sandbed. In my refugium I have a thin layer of crushed coral. All other filtration in the sump is live rock. Could the crushed coral in the fuge be what's causing it? I am so anxious to buy coral, but I won't until my parameters are correct. I have been fighting this for a year now with no success. Will I always have to have a FOWLR tank? Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Christa

bertoni · #2 08/04/2007, 03:54 PM

How much alga is being harvested out of the refugium, and how often?

Crushed coral often seems to collect a lot of debris, so I avoid it.

What is in tank in the way of animals? How much is being fed?

This article covers nitrate problems in detail:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...st2003/chem.htm

christa · #3 08/04/2007, 05:38 PM

Actually, I just added to my fuge some Chaeto along with my caulerpa a couple of weeks ago and it is doing fine, but I bought the chaeto because I was having alot of die off of my caulerpa, now they seem to both be growing well. Can the white stick like dead caulerpa increase nitrates or keep them high? I was harvesting caulerpa monthly, but then had a die off. Now in my tank I have a maroon clown, royal gramma, and 2 cleaner shrimp, all healthy and fine. I haven't bought anymore because I want to have coral. I sold my porcupine puffer about 5 months ago so I could start a reef tank. (I know they are messy fish.) I only feed every other day, and not a whole lot. I have an ETSS skimmer and no bioballs or foam block. Thanks for your help!

Percula9 · #4 08/04/2007, 05:46 PM

Try an API test kit to confirm the salifert. I heard lately people have been having problems with salifert. Maybe replace the crushed coral with a deep sand bed to enhance denitrification. From what you said I find it hard to believe that your nitrates are that high.

bertoni · #5 08/04/2007, 07:23 PM

Dying Caulerpa would tend to release nutrients into the water column, so that might have been a problem. Keeping it trimmed back should help.

seta45 · #6 08/04/2007, 10:38 PM

The thin sea bed would may not offer alot of denitrafication but it would hold alot of debris keeping the nitrates high; especially if you stir it up. You could add some sand creatures (snails, stars, cucumbers) to clean the bed or remove it.

christa · #7 08/05/2007, 08:08 AM

Thanks everyone for your help. There is alot of life in my fuge bed, but I think I will replace the crushed coral with sand, clean out the dead caulerpa sticks and trim my macro more often. Right now it is growing like crazy. Thanks for the test kit tip too. I always thought Salifert was the best. If I remove my crushed coral, and replace with live sand, that shouldn't mess up my system, right? I have never done that replacement before. Is Aragonite better for the fuge?

Christa

Percula9 · #8 08/05/2007, 08:24 AM

Replacement with live sand shouldn't be a problem. Salifert is certainly the most expensive.

christa · #9 08/05/2007, 10:56 AM

What does "API" stand for so I can look it up?

kau_cinta_ku · #10 08/05/2007, 11:56 AM

API = aquarium pharmaceuticals INC

christa · #11 08/05/2007, 03:32 PM

I always thought API was the low end of testing kits.

stony_corals · #12 08/05/2007, 03:52 PM

Are you running the light for your refugium 24 hours a day? That may speed things along too if you are not already...

ihopss · #13 08/05/2007, 04:57 PM

API is a good test kit.

kau_cinta_ku · #14 08/05/2007, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by christa
I always thought API was the low end of testing kits.

well i am sure because of how cheap they are ppl will say that. however Billy and I have tested numerious API test kits against other Test kits (sallifert, IO, ect.) and all have come out real close to each other. the only thing API don't give you is a reading as low as the tenth as salifert gives. but they are a good kit for the price

christa · #15 08/05/2007, 10:15 PM

Good info to know about the test kit! I run my fuge light only at night. You think running 24 hrs will increase growth of macro and reduce nitrate? I don't know why I didn't think of that. Don't the plants need a break though? What about pH?

Christa

TekCat · #16 08/06/2007, 01:13 AM

Yep, plants need dark period to breathe. You can get safely to 18 hours photoperiod for macros. Also, bumping up photoperiod had been reported to discourage Caulerpa to go sexual.

bertoni · #17 08/06/2007, 11:01 AM

Many algae will grow nicely with continuous lighting, although a break is good, especially for brightly-lit refugia.

hal9000a · #18 08/07/2007, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by christa
I just can't seem to get my nitrates down anymore than around 60 on a salifert kit. I have a refugium with macroalgae, a good skimmer, and in the main tank a thin layer sandbed. In my refugium I have a thin layer of crushed coral. All other filtration in the sump is live rock. Could the crushed coral in the fuge be what's causing it? I am so anxious to buy coral, but I won't until my parameters are correct. I have been fighting this for a year now with no success. Will I always have to have a FOWLR tank? Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Christa

look in this Thread
DIY Coil Denitrator Plans

gregg@AMS · #19 08/07/2007, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TekCat
Yep, plants need dark period to breathe. You can get safely to 18 hours photoperiod for macros. Also, bumping up photoperiod had been reported to discourage Caulerpa to go sexual.

believe it or not, i always run refugiums on a 24hr/day cycle. i have never seen any kind of deleterious effects on the algae, including cheatomorpha. extremely good growth rates, constant harvest, zero sexual reproduction on caulerpa.

that being said, it is very important that if somebody does have a dark cycle that it be during the time the lights are on in the main display....nothing will suck the O2 out of a tank faster than a big wad of macro-algae (not to mention pH/kH bottoming out).

TekCat · #20 08/08/2007, 12:54 PM

as they say, your mileage may vary. I've had macro on 24/7 lighting period, when I switched to 18 hours of lighting, it started to grow alot faster.

Serioussnaps · #21 08/08/2007, 04:21 PM

We haven't talked about whats going IN your tank? Or how you are taking it OUT despite the rather ineffective means(flame me, but you will lose the argument) of harvesting macroalgae? What livestock do you have..mainly fish?

Being a FOWLR it is likely that your tank is so far behind in time and lack of excellent husbandry it would be easier to cook the rock and rip the substrate out and start over.

Anyone wanna talk about sugar dosing? This will drop your trates with the quickness.

bertoni · #22 08/08/2007, 04:56 PM

I and many others have been successful with the macroalgae approach. It doesn't always work, but it seems worth trying.

Malenurse · #23 08/08/2007, 05:32 PM

I agree that the API nitrate test is very reliable and readable (compared to Salifert) - along with being much cheaper. I have one API kit that is over 5 years old and still giving accurate nirtrate readings (confirmed with Salifert, the LFS, and my new API kit). I also think the API calcium test is great - easier to use and read, just as accurate and much cheaper than Seachem at least. On the other hand, I've found the API phosphate kit useless and Salifert much better. I guess each company's test kits have individual strengths and weaknesses. I've spent a fortune learning this over the years!

christa · #24 08/08/2007, 07:11 PM

So, serioussnaps, are you saying it is impossibe to turn a FOWLR tank into a reef tank? Hasn't this been done before? I am sure it has.

token · #25 08/08/2007, 08:54 PM

christa: I might interpret Serioussnaps statement to mean that the ease with which you might make the transition to reef from FOWLR could be neglible. This statement might be precipitated by the very reason of your initial post, nitrates. I have found that FOWLR is a vastly different type of husbandry than reef-keeping, with similar goals but vastly different processes.

If nitrates cannot be lowered, something is happening with the husbandry of the tank. Many excellent methods of getting those nitrates lower have been offered and will work. The issue, however, is what is going on to create them in the first place and the answer is the actual tank itself (FOWLR). Some of that was created by the caulerpa die-off, too. In other words, what you have now might work against you as you make the transition to reef.

As an example, I have discontinued the use of caulerpa in favor of chaetomorpha exclusively. I have found chaeto to be more suitable because it does not have any ability to release potentially toxic chemicals into the water. Caulerpa does, as Coral magazine recently reported. If you have had that die-off, those chemicals might be present in your rock and/or substrate, potentially creating a situation with certain corals that is just not good.

Basically it devolves to Dissolved Organic Matter (DOM) and its presence in your FOWLR tank. An excellent article (despite its outdated information of Caulerpin and Caulerpicin) on DOM might shed some light on what I believe Serioussnaps was suggesting.

Were I making the transition from FOWLR (again), I would remove my existing substrate (in tank and in sump) without hesitation. Many options are available for its use and the critters (the truly important part of the substrate, ime) in it. Depending on the amount of live rock I held in my FOWLR, I would give serious thought to replacing it. too. Prefering a minimal amount of LR in my tank, I would probably replace it, opting to offer it for sale rather than risk that it has something I don't want on it.

That's all just my opinion and I wish you the best with the path you choose to follow. I know it's really frustrating to have a parameter consistently out of whack, despite my best efforts.