First Timer with some ideas - Page 2

Twisted · #26 10/23/2007, 01:00 AM

Nice thing about trying to drill a 20 gallon is, it didn't cost much to begin with, cheap to replace, and if the bottom breaks out, the you seperate the sides so that you have dividers for the refugium you will have to make later when you increase tank size. Because, you will increase tank size...everyone increase tank size...even if it means just adding a second, or third, maybe fourth, and in some cases a fifth tank.....

Muhahahaha! it's not a hobby! It's an addiction!

iairj84 · #27 10/23/2007, 07:45 PM

Haha well I know a 20 is only the beginning, which is why I don't wanna get too excited and put all my eggs into this proverbial basket. I started with a 10 gallon and now have too many tanks than I have space for.

What do you think is the best way to plumb for sump while not causing myself too much trouble. I can see myself turning my 55 into a salty tank.

Underwaterparadise · #28 10/23/2007, 08:12 PM

If you are even thinking of switching the 55g to Salt do it now unless you want multiple salt tanks. When the bug bites ya it bites hard and you will want a bigger tank before you know it!

Plumbing for the 20 should be simple. A 3/4" drain and 1/2" or 3/4 return line. I suggest you T off the return line into 2 lines for more options with the flow. This may elevate having power heads in the tank. Or go with some type of spray bar.

I know I am a lil ways out from Chico but if you ever have questions or need help feel free to stop by my store and ask all the questions you want. I can show several ways to plumb a tank.

iairj84 · #29 10/23/2007, 09:20 PM

Well see space, space, space... I love my cichlids and wouldn't want to get rid of them at least right now. I know it would be easier right now but I REALLY don't have the space for another 55 which is why I'm going with the 20 at least to start. You're right I will eventually want a bigger tank, or more tanks but that will just lead to me buying another. I already have the tanks for this setup which just makes it that much easier

I like the idea of dual outlets which would make it easier for flow. What kind of pumps are needed to make it all flow right?

Underwaterparadise · #30 10/24/2007, 07:03 PM

How much head loss are you going to have? I like the Quiet one pumps. A Quiet one 3000 should give you about 550gph at about 4' that would give you approx. 225gph out of each return if you "T" it off. Mag drive pumps are good but use more power thus creating more heat.

iairj84 · #31 10/24/2007, 07:29 PM

Well I dont know much about head loss but from what I gather it would seem like It would be aprox 3 feet from the bottom of the tank to the sump, and 4ft give or take for the returns. I don't know exactly how this would be calculated given my numbers but it seems that's what it looks like. The quiet one's seem affordable from what I've seen on the net.

Underwaterparadise · #32 10/24/2007, 07:57 PM

You have to figure in how many feet from the pump to where the water comes out the other end also add about 1/2' for every 90 and 1/4' for every 45. I think 5' is a safe bet. I can't really discuss prices since I am a retail store myself.

iairj84 · #33 10/24/2007, 08:38 PM

Alright so 5'' of head loss is what I'm looking at, seems pretty good... I realize you can't discuss prices, and that's fine. would the water just siphon into the sump and then the pump would pump it back out? I'm really new to the whole sump thing as you can.

Underwaterparadise · #34 10/24/2007, 08:48 PM

Yes that is the idea. Water from the main tank is gravity fed to the sump then pumped back into the tank with the return pump. Sumps are mainly used for extra water volume and a place to put all the components so they don't clutter up the tank. If I were you I would take a look at one in person just to give you a good idea of how it is set up. For me it is better to see in person then online but that is just me!

iairj84 · #35 10/24/2007, 08:59 PM

Yeah for sure. My main LFS is moving right now but I'll check out one of the others to get an idea. How would I deal with an issue like a power outage if it was to cut off power to the pump? then my sump would have water flowing in and over with no water being pumped out.

Underwaterparadise · #36 10/25/2007, 06:53 PM

water can only go over the TOP of the overflow box so if the power cuts off it will stop draining once the water level gets below the teeth on the over flow box. You just have to make sure your sump can handle what ever amount of water that is. You could always use check valves but I am not a fan of them at all.

kyletech · #37 10/25/2007, 07:19 PM

i learned about needing a hole to break suction in the return line the hard way with my first sump.

Underwaterparadise · #38 10/25/2007, 07:54 PM

Yes if your return line sits below the teeth on the overflow box you will need to drill a small hole in the return line in order to break the suction and not have a reverse syphon.

iairj84 · #39 10/26/2007, 12:02 AM

Ok so no matter what I need an overflow box of some sort. If the water level was to drop below the level of the overflow then it would stop siphoning (obviously.) What is the easiest (and safest) way to setup an overflow?

boviac · #40 10/26/2007, 01:09 AM

My Overflow: I bought an SOS overflow and it has worked wonderfully after they replaced a damaged U-tube (plastic weld failed and therefore failed to keep vacuum when trying to draw siphon over tank wall.

Basically you'll need two box like compartments - one in the tank with teeth, gutter guard, or some method of allowing water through but not critters like snails or fish, the other one outside the tank with piping/tubing connected to drain the water to the sump. These two boxes should be connected some how. Then the key and tricky part is the overflow part which takes the water from the inside tank box to the outside tank box. This is what I call the U-tube. The key is to keep this primed at all times for a power failure could cause levels to drop and prime to be lost. If designed correctly this will not happen. I have a dedicated powerhead drawing a vacuum via the attached venturi (if you can call it that - at least it is in general principle) and it sits inside the outside box as it created too much violent, jet-like flow in my main. Others I've seen are using lifter type pumps to keep the U-tube primed. The big picture here is the U-tube is where this device fails. If power goes out and it loses prime and subsequently power returns: the main tank overflows. Further, the lack of the siphon break on the sump return line(s) (if they are submerged below main tank water level) will cause water to drain from main to sump and overflow that way. I've got, I think, a 3/16" hole (actually two in mine as since it's near the surface algae over time tends to clog the hole.) Easy enough to clean but I don't want it to fail when I need it to work.

Once you get everything set up and flowing, do a trial run and let the return pump lose power. Your overflow will drain a bit, sump level will rise slightly until the siphon break hole on the sump return has a chance to work, and hopefully the U-tube prime stays. Then restart the pump to ensure it will restart after shutdown - some cheap ones fail to restart immediately and others may, over time, fail to restart if you drip kalk or add other mineral sumplimentation to your tank. After the sump pump restarts then ensure the system overlow restarts and water flows into the sump.

I have two drains in my overflow. SOS has a their silencing device on one side and a slightly higher no obstruction tube overflow on the other. This is such if anything clogs or prohibits flow on the main silent tube then the water will still have a way to make it back to the sump without problems. This of course will be slurpy and loud so you'll know to check it out. I would recommend having two overflow pipes in your outside box just to ensure if one should fail, you'll have a backup.

There are ways to make your own overflow and stockman and other types of PVC pieces can be made to minimize the noise from the drain tubes. But since this is your first setup - I would go with a retail overflow so you know what you're getting and can know that it should work.

PM me and you're more than welcome to come by and see my setup sometime.

iairj84 · #41 10/26/2007, 01:58 AM

Thanks Boviac,
I might have to take you up on that offer to see your setup sometime soon. I have lights on the way and will start getting the tank ready in the coming week or so. I would prefer to go with a prefab overflow like you suggested, would it be possible to use a HOB filter to get the water in and then add a bulkhead to the bottom? I know it seems crazy but it seems like it could work. I'm just thinking probably crazy thoughts right now....

Would it be possible to not even add bulkheads to the actual tank and run black (to make it less noticable) PVC over the top of the tank to two outlets with flow going to different areas of the tank...

Once again talking out of my rear...

iairj84 · #42 10/26/2007, 01:04 PM

I think I'm just gonna drill for the bulkheads in the tank as opposed to using an overflow box. It seems like it is more that can go wrong with the tank with an overflow box. Just put the bulkhead near the top of hte tank and set it up so that if the water gets below a certain level. Probably about 2'' down then the suction would stop. I will also drill two more holes for the outlets on each side of the tank. One towards the top and one towards the middle.

Does that work?

iairj84 · #43 10/31/2007, 02:20 PM

Alright!
I've decided I'm going to drill holes in the tank for the sump.
I don't know however which size bulkheads and tubing to use.
I have decided with all the work that would go into building a HOB overflow I might as well just build an in the tank overflow out of acrylic. I will probably initially use a strainer type overflow at first until I can get the acrylic bent and shaped the way I want it.

As for the other parts of the tank I have the lights on their way right now and they should be here by the end of the week. I need to get my sand either through a LFS or through other outlets. I've started to make plans to build a stand for the tank. It already has a home but I will build the stand for it while I'm on christmas break.

So as of right now I have an empty 20H tank and a 10 gallon tank that's got freshwater fish in it ATM but will be changed around soon as to make clear it out for the sump/refugium. I will start cutting some baffles out of acrylic or plexi in the next couple days to have that ready. I still haven't decided on a return pump yet. I've got a pond type pump that flows about 200 gallons/hr which seems fairly decent but depending on my pipe size I'm pretty sure I'm going to be needing more than that. So i've looked into other pumps but I just don't have the knowledge as to how big I need it to be.

I will be buying bulkheads and the Hole saw as soon as I know. Also if anyone has a hole saw that just so happens to be the size I need would be more than willing to pay to "rent" it for a day so I can drill the holes. Otherwise I'll buy from ebay as I'm sure they're much cheaper there and I only need drill 4 holes.

Underwaterparadise · #44 10/31/2007, 03:08 PM

If you plan on trying to silicone Acrylic to glass you will need to use an Acrylic primer or it will never seal. Acrylic and glass won't form a tight seal with just silicone unless there is very little pressure on it.

Also you are going to need a Diamond bit hole saw and they can be very pricey! Be careful of what you get from ebay make sure it is good quality bit. You should be fine with 3/4" bulk head for the drain. Also keep in mind a 3/4" bulk heads requires a hole that is larger then 3/4" You will need your bulkheads in order to determine the size hole you need.

you have a PM

iairj84 · #45 10/31/2007, 03:19 PM

PM sent back.

kinghokus420 · #46 10/31/2007, 03:26 PM

i drilled my tank with some 14$ dremel bits from HF. i can show you how if you want its easy and cheaper than a holesaw.

iairj84 · #47 10/31/2007, 03:28 PM

Thanks King,
I have some of those bits I got from HF also. It was taking me 20 minutes to get a 1/2 hole and unless I was doing something wrong it was just taking forever. Do you have any tips on doing it with dremell?

kinghokus420 · #48 10/31/2007, 03:34 PM

20 minutes, thats cheap compared to a 50+$ bit and a week of shipping. this is the thread when i did my own holes. it should/might help a bit.

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...ank-today.html

iairj84 · #49 10/31/2007, 03:39 PM

ahhh that's the thing.. in that thread the guy has different bits. mine were tiny tiny tiny compared to those. I will have to go get some of those bits instead and it should make it take a lot less time.

Where's the cheapest place to buy bulkheads in Chico, I guess Home Depot doesn't have them?

kinghokus420 · #50 10/31/2007, 03:48 PM

i got my bulkheads from fish etc. but they were freaking expensive! i was impatient. HD/Lowes dont have them. try a1 plumbing supply by the brewery they probably have something like that. not sure if they sell to the public, but they will point you in the right direction. that was my tank in the link. the bits are for sure at HF. thats where i got them.