Is this salt mix safe?

[mrgettanked]

Originally posted by bertoni
They are correct that pH is more stable with more borate, but we don't have useful borate tests, and borate can accumulate. That can leave corals without carbonate.

Actually, in Columbus's day, people didn't think the world was flat. They thought it was about 25,000 miles around (which was about right) and Columbus wasn't going to make it to India. They were right about that, too.

Seachem quotes that borate component should be about 1.5 - 2.0 meg/L range, 1.5 meg/L is on Seachem low end range, and 2.0 is on their high end range.

Borate is an important part of the water buffering system, and it helps to keep calcium levels stable as well.

IMO, all saltwater aquarium test kits are not 100% accurate, but they will give us some type of Ball Park idea of their values that we are testing for. Too low or too high of magnesium, alkalinity, pH, calcium, strontium, iodide and borate can have some type of an negative effect on saltwater aquarium water chemistry. This is why it’s recommended to test and monitor the above values to help keep them stable.

This hobby is evolving very fast, what we learned yesterday may not be so good today, so let’s keep an open mind and not get tunnel vision.

Since 2000, I’ve maintained 14 independent aquaculture reef systems totaling 3,000 gallons, as of January, 2007
I’m slowly centralizing and converting my 3,000 systems to breed and tank raise fish.

As for Columbus, I was referring to your comment about the calcium being separate from the salt mix and my thinking out side the box (lol).

The above text IMO and what works for me, just passing on some food for thought.

mrgettanked

[bertoni]

I don't think separating the calcium from the mix is thinking much outside the box. There have been multipart salt products around for a long time. I haven't seen any reason to believe separating the calcium is a benefit. I use IO and have to add calcium regularly. I consider it a negative.

SeaChem's views on borate have been discussed repeatedly on this forum, if you want to do a search.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The original Seachem salt had so much borate that it was above published toxic limits for some organisms. Their newer mix has less, but they still like to add extra. I don't prefer it as I beleive it is unnecessary. One problem, however, is if you have excessive borate, but don't know or account for exactly how much, you may be fooling yourself with total alkalinity kits about how much bicarbonate and carbonate you have available for coral use.

Nevertheless, I don't think the amount in the mix were discussing here is a big concern.

IMO, the question isn't whether there is a big problem with this mix, but rather if there is any benefit to it over traditional mixes like IO or Reef Crystals.

[RBU1]

And the only way is to try it and see if you notice any benefit.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree that for those who want to experiment, that is probably the only way to know.

[mixed_reefer]

Well i mixed a batch of it for 3 days. A 25 gal mix and a 1400 gph pump with aeration. At first mix the pH was 8.9! YIKES After 3 days of mixing and aeration the ph was 8.65, still way too high, its no wonder you cant mix the calcium in with the water untill after you dilute it in your tank, if you add cal chloride to a solution with a pH of 8.6 its going to precip right out.
So i figured id run an alk test on it.... It took a whole salifert tube and STILL did not change, the dkh waqs reading above 16! Yikes! I realize the unnaturally high borate most likely interfered with the test, but if i cant test the salt because the borate is so high then i cant add it to my tank and know where my DKH is, wich makes it useless to me.
I ran all 25 gallons down the drain and if anyone else wants the other 25g mix i have you are welcome to it free of charge.

[mixed_reefer]

And to say i need 1000 posts before he works with me is just insane. I am just as important as someone with 1000 meaningless posts.

[RBU1]

Well I was really going to make a rude comment back to you but I am more mature than that. The 1000 post thing is just to make sure it is someone that has been in the hobby for some time and not a new person. Sometimes when you are new at the hobby you don't have a total understanding and can easily post things in haste. Similar to what you just did. Did you ever think your test kits may be wrong.....NO you just had to bash the salt. I will not go any further with my response I will let someone with a more scientific response answer you. Considering you just registered in Sept of 07 I would say you are rather new to the hobby.......I could be wrong and if I am I apologize.

[mixed_reefer]

Um, i am not new, i have a few years under my belt. My test kits are new, i test my tank with them and i have had the results checked by a chemist with lab grade equip as well as lfs tests. I trust my results.
I dont need to be judged by a post count and by all means, be as rude as you feel you need to. I was not bashing anything, only reporting the truth.

Not only am i not new to this hobby i have been keeping an SPS dominated tank for over a year, im not stupid and i totally understand water chemistry. I dont know why you feel like you have some reason to upset, are you affiliated with gta? Obviously you have not ran ANY tests on your mix from them or you would have reported YOUR findings if they differed from mine.

I just got off the phone with the guy i got it from, he bought it from gta. The reason he never used it all is because "It clouded up every time i tried to mix it." As gta points out in their website, cloudiness is precipitation of solids. NO salt mix should precip out when mixed with the proper amount of water. Precip is caused by high pH and low magnesium and an over saturated solution can also play a role (too much cal, alk).

[RBU1]

The fact the calicum is not in the mix causes no interaction between the ingredients. Had you SLOWLY added the calcium to the mixed water then tested you would have been happy with the results.
If you want a better clarification of the salt I would suggest you contact the maker you may be enlightened..........

[RBU1]

I also have my water tested by a lab grade company called aquariumwatertesting.com I can tell you in the 2 months I have been using this salt my readings have improved drastically. Here is an interesting comment from the lab testing company:

Boron (B) Natural Seawater Value: 4.6 mg/lAcceptable Range: 3.0 – 6.0 mg/lTested: 5.392 mg/lYour boron levels are within given parameters. We recommend maintaining your current buffering and water change schedule. Boron is a significant portion of your aquarium Ph and water buffering capacity, and is crucial to maintaining appropriate calcium levels, as well as being essential to several biological processes, including macro algae growth.

[mixed_reefer]

I had been mixing the salt since i started this thread, I don't need clarification from anyone, I saw it clear enough myself. BTW, the calcium was never added to the mix, at least i got a free package of peladow.
AWT has come under some serious scrutiny, alot of people aren't trusting their results. In the 2 months that you have used the salt, your borate is on the high end of the range, another few months and it might be to toxic levels, yes borate is toxic to some animals. Also how is it that you test your alk? If its by most conventional methods, the high borate is skewing the results and you would have no idea of the actual DKH of your aquarium.

I was mixing this salt with the intention of using it obviously, even after being advised not to. I ran some tests just to see where i stood, it was my own testing that made me decide to not use it, nothing else. I also see that the GTA site shows tanks that they say are part of the aquaculture system, i dont see a single sps in them. I keep very sensitive animals in my tanks, i dont want to risk them in any fashion. This salt might be ok for some tanks but ive chosen not to use it in mine.
I came here for help and some discussion, not to be jumped on for my findings, my experience or anything else you disagree with.

[bertoni]

The boron level seems fine, if the AWT result is accurate.

The alkalinity and pH problem is strange. Have you tried the alkalinity test kit on another saltwater sample recently?

[mixed_reefer]

Yes, just a few mins prior to testing the mixing saltwater i tested my tank. I test my tanks alk at least every other day, i just finished up an old kit a few weeks back and started in on a new one and i did not get much if any variance in the readings. I used both kits back to back before i finished off the old one to compare them.

His AWT tests according to him were of tank water after using this salt for 2 months, not of the actual product, freshly mixed.

I dont believe the alk/pH problem is strange at all. The alk test is skewed by the high borate and the pH is super high and rock solid for the same reason. It makes perfect sense. If you add the calcium to the solution it will fall right out because of the pH being so high, the pH is not coming down from the upper range because, like you said, "pH is more stable with more borate".

[bertoni]

If the borate is very high, that could be true, but the AWT result is normal. Well, I don't understand.

[mixed_reefer]

If i had an alk test that would account for the borate and give me an actual reading, and i could get the pH down enough to add the calcium solution, i would consider using it in my situation. I dont have such a test and i cant get the pH down with any amount of mixing and aeration, so i decided not to use it.

Thank you for your help, it is appreciated.

[RBU1]

Mixed Reefer......If you have not already thrown the salt away can you please take the time to do a little test for me? make up a batch of the salt and let it mix for a day or so. Then slowly add the calcium pre-disolved in some RO water to the salt mix. I think you will be real happy with the results.