clam X prefers sand is bunk!

[jfatherree]

Just checking in - quite a post!!!

Here comes my two cents...

ALL species of tridacna (big and small) can be found living on hard substrates. So, keeping any of them on hard substrates in a tank is natural, regardless of size. However, crocea is never found on sand in the wild, and I've never once seen a maxima on sand, either. These two form a strong attachment for life. The rest are attached when small, but let go when they get older and often fall down onto sand where they can live out their lives just fine. Even if they get knocked over, they can flip themselves back upright (BTW - crocea and maxima can't do that. If they get knocked over in the wild - they die).

Will a crocea or maxima drop dead if placed unright on sand? Nope, but it's still unnatural for them. They don't have brains and don't think, so they can't be "unhappy", but they do have a "program" (I tend to think of it like a computer program that takes input and then responds in a pre-programmed manner). The program instructs them to attach to something and they'll do everything they can to do so. So, to some degree I think placing either of these on sand with nothing to attach to can indeed lead to physiological stress. Enough to kill them? Again, apparently not, but I like to keep things as close to natural as possible, when possible. Just to please myself if nothing else...

Oddly enough, the two species of hippopus only live on soft bottoms, gravel, and rubble, though. I never seen either on a hard substrate and have never read any report of them being found on hard bottoms either. They tend to attach to a peice of rubble at the surface, or just below the sand surface when small, and just sit on the sand when large enough (like the others). So, I'd try to let the do the same in a tank, too...



Not that's it's related, but I was just thinking... Humans are THE MOST domesticated animal and we still lose our tempers, fight wars, have great difficulty controlling our sexual urges, etc... Centuries of "civilized" living and we've still got all of our basic instincts that have nothing to do with the thinking part of our brains.

[jfatherree]

More:

Klk wrote:
"....yes , but the longer you set in the sand, the more likely something will sooner or later crawl up your byssel.
there is solely one reason why certain clams bore into the rock.
Its to protect their vulnerable undersides."

Nope, the reason cro and max have large byssal opening is so that their pedal mantle tissue can extend out of the bottom of the shell and dissolve the substrate that they bore into. The lower part of the mantle can reach all the way up the sides of the shell (from the byssal opening) - that wouldn't be possible without a large opening, which would mean no burrowing.

[mbbuna]

hey J, good to hear from you

[jfatherree]

Thsi whole "domesticated" thing started right here:

Kalk wrote:
"Domesticated clams are quite unlike their wild counterparts." and "Farmed clams need to be in completely separate classification. They are vastly different then their wild counterparts."

No - they aren't. If fact, most farms regularly pull new broodstcok from the sea specifically to maintain genetic diversity amongst their new clams. Many farms are required to use some percentage of their clams to re-seed reefs in restoration projects and they don't want every clam around the island to be from the same parents...

BTW Klk, if you wanted to emulate the conditions found at a farm you'd need almost zero flow and some 2000w metal halides.

Also, brown clams make plenty of colorful babies and colorful adults make plenty of brown clams - the brown ones just go to seafood markets in Asia. The idea that breeding only colorful clams will get you only colorful clams is wrong again.

Kalk, I'm guessing you've never actually been to a farm and don't really know how they do things.

Also saw this "Some scientists are also working on switching the zooxathellae in clams and coral with combinations of hosts and symbionts which are not found to occur in the wild."

Some work was done in the 70's, putting zoox from anemones and jellyfish into clams, but that's the last I heard of it. If someone else is trying it now, I want to read it. So, please post the reference(s).

[manderx]

Isnt this a contradiction to itself? Clams "prefer" to survive. And therefore, the conditions that allow the ability to survive is what they prefer.

you missed the point completely. clams would have to be sentient to be able to 'prefer to survive' and realize they are in danger by being in the sand. if they were more mobile, then evolutionary pressure could result in an instinctive drive to be one place or the other. but they aren't. they settle where they settle, and the ones that landed in a poor spot die outside of their control.

and since these pressures don't exist in our tanks (eaten by a stingray, buried by sand) then they should not be factored into our decision process as to where to put them in our tanks.

[jfatherree]

Thanks mbbuna - been very, very busy, and it's not over yet. I teach three courses and got new textbooks for two of them at the same time (bad luck, wasn't intentional). So, I've be "remaking" two whole courses for the fall semester, and keeping up with the magazine writing, and teaching summer school...

BTW - I'm also setting up a lab to do aquarium research on clams! I've gotten a ton of supplies, lighting, etc. donated to the school and will be setting things up soon to look at growth under MH vs T-5 vs PC, if any foods are better than others, color changes of the mantle under different lighting, and several other things. I'll be getting 120 croceas and derasas in soon

Time for some REAL DATA!

[mbbuna]

busy indeed! cant wait to see the results of your research, will that be in Giant Clams in the sea and the Aquarium part-2 or will you write it up in something else?

[Kalkbreath]

No - they aren't. If fact, most farms regularly pull new broodstcok from the sea specifically to maintain genetic diversity amongst their new clams. Many farms are required to use some percentage of their clams to re-seed reefs in restoration projects and they don't want every clam around the island to be from the same parents...

Most farms dont, but some do.
Thats why we need to find new words to distinguish between the two.
Wild brood stock who's off spring is grown in captivity is "cultured "but not cultured with any specific hybridization or improvements in mind.
Cross breeding by selecting parents with certain traits they would like to see in the offspring is more then simply cultivating.
Domesticated dogs and cats didnt become the hybrids they are with out the humans who cared for them selecting certain parents to spawn the next litter.
What do we call the product of hybridization in wild animals under our care?
I kinda like my own newly coined term of "FARMESTICATION" : biological and sociological adaptations within a captive species while under the effects of human cultivation.

[Kalkbreath]

BTW Klk, if you wanted to emulate the conditions found at a farm you'd need almost zero flow and some 2000w metal halides.

Yes ! your making my point.
Wild clams are accustomed to surge flows and wave action.
Something missing in domestic conditions both at the farm and in the hobbyists aquarium. ....a condition which farmed clams feel right at home in.

Wild Clams are not accustomed to a lack of water flow and may have difficulty ridding themselves of parasites and waste partials in a slow flow aquarium.
Can this be one of the reasons wild calms have such a high mortality rate in captivity?

Clams who must rid themselves of debris from day one are better adapted to do so in an aquarium.

Do wild clams have such a high rate of gill related problems like Perk and PM because of the lack of this "cleansing" wave action like out on the reefs?

Some farms use heavy shade cloth and reduce the lighting levels at the farm to levels much lower then found out on the reef where the wild clams are living..
Does this support my notion that farmestiction produces a different product then wild clams?

[jfatherree]

Still waiting on the reference for this...

"Some scientists are also working on switching the zooxathellae in clams and coral with combinations of hosts and symbionts which are not found to occur in the wild."

[jfatherree]

Kalk, where do you dream up this stuff?

"Wild Clams are not accustomed to a lack of water flow and may have difficulty ridding themselves of parasites and waste partials in an aquarium."

How would water flow "rid" a clam of an internal parasite? It wouldn't. Wastes are moved out by muscualr contraction, no current needed.

"Do wild clams have such a high rate of gill related problems like Perk and PM because of the lack of this "cleansing" wave action like out on the reefs? "

Waves/currents don't pass through the mantle cavity. The flow of water inside has essentially nothing to do with the flow outside. They create their own internal circulation through ciliary action.

Do you have any data, survey results, etc. to show that wild collected clams have a higher mortality rate from PM than farmed ones? If so, I'd like to see that, too. From what I've gathered from dealers, there's either no difference, or maybe even more farmed ones that get it. If you disagree, where's your evidence?

Please, post references so we can all see for ourselves what you claim.

[Kalkbreath]

Originally posted by jfatherree
Still waiting on the reference for this...

"Some scientists are also working on switching the zooxathellae in clams and coral with combinations of hosts and symbionts which are not found to occur in the wild."

Hey ! Im already giving you plenty of free trade secretes in this thread.


....But to head you off in the right direction, consider that Indonesian species of coral usually have five or so types of Zooxanthellae inside their tissues and most Pacific species have ONE.

I can change what mother nature never quite got around to with a single zoox party!

[manderx]

"Some scientists are also working on switching the zooxathellae in clams and coral with combinations of hosts and symbionts which are not found to occur in the wild."

i don't know exactly what he meant by that but i have heard from a friend in aquaculture at VaTech (who's boss/professor does lots of clam stuff overseas) said that ORA has a patent on the zoox strains they have developed and inoculate with.

[Kalkbreath]

Originally posted by jfatherree
Kalk, where do you dream up this stuff?

"Wild Clams are not accustomed to a lack of water flow and may have difficulty ridding themselves of parasites and waste partials in an aquarium."

How would water flow "rid" a clam of an internal parasite? It wouldn't. Wastes are moved out by muscualr contraction, no current needed.

"Do wild clams have such a high rate of gill related problems like Perk and PM because of the lack of this "cleansing" wave action like out on the reefs? "

Waves/currents don't pass through the mantle cavity. The flow of water inside has essentially nothing to do with the flow outside. They create their own internal circulation through ciliary action.

Do you have any data, survey results, etc. to show that wild collected clams have a higher mortality rate from PM than farmed ones? If so, I'd like to see that, too. From what I've gathered from dealers, there's either no difference, or maybe even more farmed ones that get it. If you disagree, where's your evidence?

Please, post references so we can all see for ourselves what you claim.

It seems you need a lot more research on where Perkinsus damage occures on Giant clams and how it kills the host.

It smothers the clams gills to the point at which the clam cant breath .

[Kalkbreath]

Waves/currents don't pass through the mantle cavity. The flow of water inside has essentially nothing to do with the flow outside. They create their own internal circulation through ciliary action.

Storm action kicks up sand onto the gills which future aids the clam with removing the protozoans from the clams gills.
think of it as Kleenex for bivalves.
I thought your supposed to be the clam guru ?

[Kalkbreath]

Originally posted by manderx
i don't know exactly what he meant by that but i have heard from a friend in aquaculture at VaTech (who's boss/professor does lots of clam stuff overseas) said that ORA has a patent on the zoox strains they have developed and inoculate with.

Very good! See even the average hobbyists can be at times more informed then the book he reads!

[mbbuna]

i just did a patent search. i found no patents on zooxanthelle strains or species. the only remotely related patent was on fluorophores used as labels on other molecules.

[mbbuna]

Originally posted by Kalkbreath
Storm action kicks up sand onto the gills which future aids the clam with removing the protozoans from the clams gills.
think of it as Kleenex for bivalves.

really? how exactly is a grain of sand going to remove a microscopic organism embedded in flesh and mucus?

[Kalkbreath]

Well its kinda gross , but since you asked :

........its called a sand "booger"

Just like when we humans go to the beach , boogers are always easier to pick out of your nose on the way home from the beach.....then on the way to the beach. the answer---- sand.

[jfatherree]

"i don't know exactly what he meant by that but i have heard from a friend in aquaculture at VaTech (who's boss/professor does lots of clam stuff overseas) said that ORA has a patent on the zoox strains they have developed and inoculate with."

I just got off the phone with Dustin Dorton, my friend who's a VP at ORA and is over all the clam stuff they do. He's never heard of anything like this. So I asked if they've got something going on that could be misinterpreted for patenting zoox - his response was that he had no idea where a rumor like that would come from.

There's a farm in Indonesia that I visited that has a patent on a method of culturing zoox, but not a patent on zoox. Maybe that's what you're thinking of...

"It seems you need a lot more research on where Perkinsus damage occures on Giant clams and how it kills the host."

Actually, I've got all the papers regarding perk and clams in my file cabinet, unless something new has come out in the last month or so. What I have says that P. olseni is found in the digestive tract, and P. sp. is found on the mantle. I don't have anything showing it found on the gills of tridacnids. If you do, please post the reference.

"Storm action kicks up sand onto the gills which future aids the clam with removing the protozoans from the clams gills.
think of it as Kleenex for bivalves."

Complete Bullsh*t. Nuf said.



Kalk, I sure wish you'd quit making stuff up - do you ever stop to think that you could really mislead a bunch of hobbyists that don't know better than to not listen to you. This board is to help people.

Post the refs I asked for - or is everything you know "a trade secret" that you somehow are privy to even though you're not a clam farmer?

[Kalkbreath]

Originally posted by jfatherree
"i don't know exactly what he meant by that but i have heard from a friend in aquaculture at VaTech (who's boss/professor does lots of clam stuff overseas) said that ORA has a patent on the zoox strains they have developed and inoculate with."

I just got off the phone with Dustin Dorton, my friend who's a VP at ORA and is over all the clam stuff they do. He's never heard of anything like this. So I asked if they've got something going on that could be misinterpreted for patenting zoox - his response was that he had no idea where a rumor like that would come from.

There's a farm in Indonesia that I visited that has a patent on a method of culturing zoox, but not a patent on zoox. Maybe that's what you're thinking of...

"It seems you need a lot more research on where Perkinsus damage occures on Giant clams and how it kills the host."

Actually, I've got all the papers regarding perk and clams in my file cabinet, unless something new has come out in the last month or so. What I have says that P. olseni is found in the digestive tract, and P. sp. is found on the mantle. I don't have anything showing it found on the gills of tridacnids. If you do, please post the reference.

"Storm action kicks up sand onto the gills which future aids the clam with removing the protozoans from the clams gills.
think of it as Kleenex for bivalves."

Complete Bullsh*t. Nuf said.



Kalk, I sure wish you'd quit making stuff up - do you ever stop to think that you could really mislead a bunch of hobbyists that don't know better than to not listen to you. This board is to help people.

Post the refs I asked for - or is everything you know "a trade secret" that you somehow are privy to even though you're not a clam farmer?

Original thought a bad thing? Interesting.

Seems if you truly felt that all the answers are in that so called cabinet of yours , you would not feel the need to conduct your own research on captive feeding (now would you)?
This hobby has a long way to go with clam husbandry.
The current available research is based on wild clams living in the oceans.
Perhaps new ideas are whats needed to propel us into new much over do ... greater understanding.
The past 100 years of data still dont answer many of the basic husbandry issues.
You would think basic ideals like "feeding" and "disease" would have been already been mastered.
We have yet to scratch the surface.

[ezcompany]

James, i think he's finally admitting that he's pulling our leg with his last post

edit: his 2nd to last post...

[Kalkbreath]

Not in the least.
Im just not willing to kiss and tell.
If you feel none of the issues I have raised here are of any merit and that all which can be known about clams has already been revealed

well then your happy and thats all that matters right?

[mbbuna]

Originally posted by Kalkbreath
Well its kinda gross , but since you asked :

........its called a sand "booger"

Just like when we humans go to the beach , boogers are always easier to pick out of your nose on the way home from the beach.....then on the way to the beach. the answer---- sand.

so all i have to do to cure PM is throw sand on my clam and pick its nose?

[mbbuna]

Originally posted by Kalkbreath
Not in the least.
Im just not willing to kiss and tell.
If you feel none of the issues I have raised here are of any merit and that all which can be known about clams has already been revealed

well then your happy and thats all that matters right?

spill the beans dude! help everyone out!!!!

the main issue you have raised is to try to change the classification of clams to domesticated. you have stated that if the industry would use this term that hobbyist might have a better understanding how to care for them. changing that term wont make a bit of difference. the average person doesnt want to do the research to learn how to care for the things they want, they just want the "pretty blue one".



what physological changes to clams have accured in the short 40 years theyve been coultured?