multiple tangs ?!?

[Denadai]

I Have an achilles, sohal and SailFin in 110 G and everything is going well

Regards

Roberto

[Kayo]

Roberto,

How long is your tank?

[Denadai]

My tank has 130x50x60 ( in cm )

See the pictures of my reef :







Regards

Roberto Denadai

[Wolverine]

As that sohal gets bigger, there's a reasonable chance that it's going to kill all the other fish in that tank.

Dave

[Kayo]

Great looking tank Roberto. You managed to get all three tangs in the first picture.

[Denadai]

Hi Wolverine,

I really don´t believe that my sohal will kill my other fishes

He is very peaceful

And with your reef is not too big , the fishes will not get big like in the nature. They grow according to your tank size.

Regards

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by Denadai
I really don´t believe that my sohal will kill my other fishes

He is very peaceful

And with your reef is not too big , the fishes will not get big like in the nature. They grow according to your tank size.

I disagree on both counts. Fish do slow down their growths, but if they stop growing, that a health of the animal issue; stunted growth is not a good thing, and will shorten the life of the animal. This has been debated countless times here and elsewhere, and is not worth getting into at this time.

As for the sohal, I've seen dozens of previously peaceful sohals wipe out tanks overnight (much like clown triggers and clown tangs). Some of these have even been in tanks significantly larger than your's, and with fish that have been in there for several years. Sometimes they just kill the other large, laterally compressed fishes (angels, tangs, triggers, eg).

I'm just making you (and others reading the thread) aware of the issue. I wouldn't do it, but obviously whether you keep it in there is up to you.

Dave

[Denadai]

Fish do slow down their growths, but if they stop growing, that a health of the animal issue; stunted growth is not a good thing, and will shorten the life of the animal

Do you have some scientific research about that ??? If you have I would like to read.

An Example :

I bought two ocellaris clown. One is in my nano reef and the other one I gave to my friend. My friend has a 300G tank

Even the clownfishes has the same age ( about 2 years ) , my clownfish is still small, but the other is very huge.

What dou you think about that ?

Do you think that my friends clown is more healthy than mine because he is bigger ???

Do you think my clown will die before the big one ???

Regards

[isotope21]

Denadai,

Ask and you shall receive:

Dr. Timothy A. Hovanec, Chief Science Officer of the Aquaria Group

http://www.marineland.com/articles/22AqCapacity.asp

"An old adage says that fish will only grow to the size of the aquarium. This is wrong; they will only grow to the size (and efficiency) of the filtration system."


Dr. Robert Fenner, author The Conscientious Marine Aquarist

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebI...rwLmtChems.htm

"Do fish grow only as large as their genetic capability and physical environment allows? Well, sort of. Metabolite effects, are often more rate/size limiting. "

It is not true that fish will only grow to fit their tank. This is an "old wives' tale" perpetuated by the fact that most fish will die before they visibly outgrow the tank they are housed in. This early death is unnecessary and can be easily avoided by providing enough space for the fish to reach full size.

Keith Seyffarth (hobbyist)

http://honors.montana.edu/~weif/firsttank/size.phtml

"Almost all cold-blooded animals, including fish, will continue to grow as long as they are alive, and may outgrow a small tank. The "full grown" size of a fish is determined by genetics, not by aquarium size, and individual fish will reach different sizes, just as adult humans reach different sizes. Other factors can influence the size a fish will reach, just as they will in other animals. These factors include quality of diet, available nutrients and resources, cleanliness, volume of diet, and available space."

-----------------------
Also, have you considered the sexual dimorphism of clownfishes? All clownfishes are born male and, at any time in their lifespan, can transition to female. Females are typically 2-3x larger than the males.

Your friend's clownfish is not necessarily healthier, and is no correlation between size and expected lifespan in captive environments.

Hope this helps,
Pete

[Denadai]

Good article.

But I´m not sure about what I read.

All clownfishes are born juvenile, not male as you said.

Actualy I have a couple of clown and my friend too. The male and the female of my friend are huge.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is an "old wives' tale" perpetuated by the fact that most fish will die before they visibly outgrow the tank they are housed in. This early death is unnecessary and can be easily avoided by providing enough space for the fish to reach full size.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I disagree with that. I have some friends that has tang´s for years ( 6 or more ) and always the large tangs are in huge tanks, and the small one are in small tanks.......but both of them has the same age in average.....

I think that in small tanks, the fishes can´t swim a lot, and this is the reason why they don´t get too big like in nature.

Regards

[isotope21]

All clownfishes are born juvenile, not male as you said.

True, my original statement is confusing. I was alluding to the irreversible transition from male to female in clownfishes, ie, becoming a female brings a drastic increase and size and thus could explain the difference between two clownfishes of the same age.

Anyone interested can check out these few pages from Joyce Wilkerson's clownfish book.

I think that in small tanks, the fishes can´t swim a lot, and this is the reason why they don´t get too big like in nature.

Then you must agree that an eagle confined to a small birdcage would stay small because it couldn't fly a lot, that a great dane kept only in a small pen wouldn't reach full size because it can't run a lot, and miniature cows could be raised in very small barns.

This myth belongs to the same category as "don't shave your hair, it will grow back thicker and darker." No - hair color and thickness is a genetic trait, not one linked to the frequency of shaving. Hair appears thicker and darker at the base, ie during new growth, providing the ILLUSION that shaving has somehow altered your hair growth characteristics. But I digress....

Both Fenner and Havonec's articles indicate that environmental factors NOT not including the size of the tank will affect the growth of organisms. However, it is important to note that the size of the tank can be indirectly related to this concept. You know the phrase "dilution is the solution to pollution?" A larger tank may prove to be a more efficient filter, and certainly will provide a greater dilution of growth-stunting substances, than a smaller one. If this is indeed true, this could lead to a spurious correlation that aquarium size is a determining factor of growth when in fact it is due to low livestock stress levels, low concentrations of harmful substances, and so on.

I know that we could go round and round, with you speaking anecdotally versus my theoretic approach, and I'm not trying to force my claims on you as gospel. Believe what you want, you have a beautiful tank and I think your surgeonfish are exquisite. I'm sure, as an experienced aquarist, that you would take the appropriate steps to find an overgrown fish a new home, or solve any violent sibling rivalry that could arise.

Best of luck,
Pete

[JENnKerry]

Originally posted by Denadai
They grow according to your tank size.

Saltwater fish are not like freshwater. Freshwater fish will grow as big as the tank that they're in will allow. Saltwater fish and corals will continue to grow and eventually outgrow their surroundings unless they're able to get to their max adult size. I agree with Wolverine.

[Denadai]

Hi guys,

Believe what you want, you have a beautiful tank and I think your surgeonfish are exquisite. I'm sure, as an experienced aquarist, that you would take the appropriate steps to find an overgrown fish a new home, or solve any violent sibling rivalry that could arise.

Yes, you are right

I know that the right thing would be place tang´s just in large tanks. But we know that this is not true , and we can see a lot of tangs in 50G or 70G.

You know the phrase "dilution is the solution to pollution?" A larger tank may prove to be a more efficient filter, and certainly will provide a greater dilution of growth-stunting substances, than a smaller one. If this is indeed true, this could lead to a spurious correlation that aquarium size is a determining factor of growth when in fact it is due to low livestock stress levels, low concentrations of harmful substances, and so on.

I agree, that is why I use a powerful skimmer in my tank.

Now, imagine this example :

We have a dozen of yellow tangs.

We have a dozen tanks , all connected. So, we have the same water, the same water chemistry, and we will feed the fishes with the same food and the same quantity. And we a have a good skimmer, good UV filter, an excelente water quality for the fishes.

The only diference is that we have six tanks with 200G and six tanks with 60G. And we add each YT per tank

Ok, after 10 years, I would like to ask :

If the theory is right, all the YT will be with the same size ( or very approximate size ) ??? Or the YT that was in large tanks will be larger than the YT that was in small tanks ??

Do your bets

Regards

[isotope21]

We have a dozen of yellow tangs.

We have a dozen tanks , all connected. So, we have the same water, the same water chemistry, and we will feed the fishes with the same food and the same quantity. And we a have a good skimmer, good UV filter, an excelente water quality for the fishes.

The only diference is that we have six tanks with 200G and six tanks with 60G. And we add each YT per tank

Ok, after 10 years, I would like to ask :

If the theory is right, all the YT will be with the same size ( or very approximate size ) ??? Or the YT that was in large tanks will be larger than the YT that was in small tanks ??

Alright, now that's the start a scientific approach! Yes, provided that the common water system and set up has eliminated all of the other variables found in a captive environment, we could begin to make assertions about the direct impact of tank size on fish growth/size.

Still, the reason I imagine that an experiment like this hasn't been performed is that we're yet to find an easier example in the animal kingdom where confinement clearly affects size (like keeping a tiger in a zoo cage) but there is an abundance of evidence of chemical effects on growth and health.

Cheers,
Pete

[Wolverine]

Yes, we see lots of tangs in smaller tanks that seem to be OK, but they are rarely there for the long haul. For every one that you find that does well, we can find a dozen that didn't do well. Of course, on the internet it's harder to verify this because people are often hesitant to discuss their failures.

IME, the tangs that are kept in smaller tanks, and don't grow as large, don't live as long. It's as simple as that. On the scale of these fish even 6 or 7 years is not long term. Most people keeping tangs in smaller tanks don't keep them longer than that (usually not even that long). They don't compare well to the ones that I've seen that have been in tanks for 10 or 15 years, which are always in larger tanks, and are much, much bigger.

Dave

[JENnKerry]

Exactly. By keeping them in a smaller tank when they should be kept in larger ones, their growth could be stunted, thus resulting in a premature death. Again, I agree with Wolverine.

[Denadai]

their growth could be stunted, thus resulting in a premature death

Ok, I agree that tang´s needs a lot of room...this is obvious.

I´m physicist, and if you do an affirmation, you have to prove that you are right.

There is some research that prove that tangs in small tanks ( 80G for example ) will result in a premature death ??? Even if we have an excelent water quality and food ???

Regards

Roberto

[carl0209]

I think we all got a little caught up in the mix here. How about helping out with the question. I for one have a yellow, a purple,
a powder blue, a nasso, a sail, and a blue. I had a soho and had to tear my tank down to be able to add any fish because he would kill anything and everything I tried to put in. As far as the tangs that I have now they all seem to get along now. My tank is
a 220gl. 72"x30"x24"

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by Denadai
I´m physicist, and if you do an affirmation, you have to prove that you are right.

There is some research that prove that tangs in small tanks ( 80G for example ) will result in a premature death ??? Even if we have an excelent water quality and food ???

There's very little research that goes on in this hobby. That which is done tends to be subpar. It's hard to justify the finances necessary to run all of the tanks for the length of time needed to show statistical significance. If you want pure scientific proof of everything, you'll end up being very frustrated by these conversations and potentially by this hobby in general. I find that physicists and engineers can often get frustrated by biology in general for this reason. Guassian and near-Gaussian distributions of traits make absolutes difficult.

That said, an anecdotal retrospective review finds very, very few tangs, if any, that are over 10 years old in small tanks.

Dave

[dendronepthya]

And 10 years is still only 50% of their natural life span.

[Denadai]

I know that is very difficult to prove without a research.

But I really don´t know about the premature death.....sound like fake to me...it´s just a feeling.

10 years is enough time to reach adult size

Regards

[dendronepthya]

No, 10 years meaning our husbandry techniques are not satisfactory. A remember a study done several years ago that showed a tang reaches adult size in under 2 years. That fact that those in our tanks do not and do not live more than a small fraction of their life expectancy is a slight to the conditions we are providing.

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by Denadai
But I really don´t know about the premature death.....sound like fake to me...it´s just a feeling.

Just basing it on the anecdotal dozens I've seen that are older and in large tanks (and the hundreds, if not thousands, that have died small).

That feeling you mention could sometimes be called wishful thinking.

Dave

[iori_del]

just really wonder is it ok to put so many tang in a tang, so everyone is hating to do so??