When Good LFS's Go Bad

[Lev F.]

Oh boy, another rant.

This is just to let off some steam. My favourite LFS was the greatest LFS I had ever visited. The people were knowledgeable, the environment was always clean, the holding tanks were large, and the fish and inverts they sold were ALWAYS possible to keep in captivity. They once got in a Spotted Filefish by accident (they ordered orangetail filefish), and they put it in their coral tank to help it survive. At the back tank, which was supposed to have sharks, had a lot of "rescued, un-buyable" fish, such as fish with missing eyes, large fish returned to the store ( like a 2-3 foot long snowflake moray they had) and such. I knew both of the managers well, and they also knew me well, and we would trade coral frags regularly. the other members of the team knew me quite well also.


But one day, it changed. About a month ago, one of the managers quit the job. A new manager came to take his place. how bad could it be? Very bad indeed. he fired half of the team, and replaced them with Petco-like knowledge employees that can't tell a feather duster from a tube anemone. But it gets worse. He was being such a ******,and so full of himself, that the other manager (the guy who worked the fish room, and placed the orders), quit also. This is when things started to go down the drain. (no pun intended!) Things started coming in that shouldn't have.

At first it was minor. A couple of Flagfin angelfishes and a Rock Beauty. Then they started getting Moorish Idols. P. Tuka was starting to become a regular import. And they ordered twice the amount of stock that they could possibly hold. The once-large holding tanks had been divided by plastic dividers so it would be easier to catch the concentrated fish. The prices started rising. the A. Nummifer that I obtained for $29.99, were being sold for $200 as "rare black frogfish." The shark tank that held the unwanted fish was destroyed, the rocks removed, and now it holds a single pipe, which the snowflake moray use(d) to hide in. They also put an enormous A. commerson in the tank. It ate everything but the eel. The eel couldn't really move from that one pipe. It died. On the tank were some drawings of sharks and it read "SHARKS COMING SOON!!" the tank was 4'000 gallons. They ordered a couple of blacktips. they died on their first night in the tank.

Then the tanks were being crammed with incompatibilities. Triggers with lionfish. Large Angelfishes with Anthias. But yesterday was where I found it to be the most disturbing I had ever seen it. The once Nice, Friendly, Knowledgeable LFS, had turned into somthing like PETCO.

All of the tanks were divided with eggcrate or plastic dividers. Dottybacks, Grammas, and Reef Lobsters were condemned to little plastic containers with no shelter to prevent them from fighting or eating others. A 5 inch container held 4, 5 inch long toad fish, which were practically sitting on each other. No shelter was provided. And here is the scariest of all, the fish I saw that day that were occupying those tanks that were impossible, to near impossible to keep in captivity:

Moorish Idols
P. Tuka, about 10 individuals
Spotted Filefish
Triangle Butterflyfish, a pair.
Crinoids.

and a couple of other species I can't remember.

And the other ones. Take this as literally as it comes: THE FISH WERE RIPPING EACH OTHER APART! Lionfish with clipped fins, Frogfish housed with bite-sized morsels, Anthias with practically no fins, dead fish in every tank.


Basically, it's gone. One small change in management, and a nice fish store turns into a money hungry warehouse. I could go on, but I think i have said enough. Thanks for listening.

[ILoveLlamas]

[Genral72]

That is disgusting.

Hope it doesn't ever happen to my LFS.

[jim293]

Crazy how fast it can all turn around. Sorry to hear that.

[Marinemom]

That's what happens when the good management leaves and the crap takes is place because they think it is more cost effective. I hate that when it happens. It has recently happened to a mom and pop shop that I have been going to for years. Now one of the best people there has left and it is only being run by the owner of the store but somehow it is not the same and I do not see a reason to return. It is sad really. The quality in this shop has also suffered since a certain someone has left.

Marinemom

[OnlyCrimson]

I'm glad i work at my lfs and my boss won't get stuff he knows he can't keep alive. He spends a lot of time making sure everything is eating and nothing is killing eachother. Feeds 4 or 5 foods a day. Sorry to hear about that loss. Have you complained to them yet? There's one store i live near thats really bad. I usually walk through and talk really loud to myself "Wow, these tanks are way overcrowded!" or something else to get their attention and hopefully talk to them about it.

[yrema]

you should see LFS here. If that is bad, LFS here in manila are wicked.

Of 20 LFS here, only 4 are good and knowledgeable.

that kind of irresponsible behavior should be condemned, and LFS like that should be boycotted.

[zoomfish1]

The only maybe positive thing that might happen is all the other customer's see it as you do and they quit going in like you did, and the store closes down. At least that is what I would hope to have happen.

[freedive43]

I've been collecting fish commercially for a bit now and over time I've had to wrestle with the dilemma of my job vs. the environment. At times we export over a thousand fish each week from Hawaii. My greatest worry is that these fish might end up condemned to (an albeit short) life in a poorly run LFS. As a precaution, we choose our customer base very carefully and use the internet to research the reputation of their store. Some of our best customers are those that spend the least amount of money because they recognize the holding capacity of their systems. A store can always order more fish, the important thing is keeping the ones they already have in good condition.

[RichardS]

The real questions are...

How much stuff are you buying from them?

If they keep doing the same thing but reduce their prices to well below the other stores would you shop there????

Hopefully you have another good or potentially good LFS to choose from. Just keep in mind that everytime you shop a bad store because it's convenient or they have a great deal going then you are supporting/validating their business approach and not supporting the responsible store.

[JamesJR]

That is so sad.

[Rosseau]

It can be a hard choice as a consumer if there is a lack of options near by. Maybe this isn't the case with this store - likely not, they wouldn't be able to sell off such exotic items if the customer base is small. But I know i've bought questionable items due to a lack of competing stores, bah.

[Sarcophyton874]

Yeah this happens to fish stores out here in SoCal also. Most stores here overcharge for fish/corals that are already condemned; the going rate for a medium toadstool is like $45-50. Luckily, some stores realize that their prices are inflated, so you can end up haggling. Other stores sell the same corals for $25-30 and eventually they die.

However, inflated prices is just one problems here in Socal. Most LFS employees don't know what the profanity removed they are talking about. There is only one LFS in my area, out of five, that actually knows this hobby. The only problem with them is that the owners are straight up [profanity].

We should all open our own LFS lol.

[pbukow]

That kind of thing really depressess me I hate when people treat these beautiful animals as furniture or inatimate things that dont have special requirements to survive. just like that [profanity] that destroyed an incredible store.

Is this place in America by chance? I would love to go down there and protest and ghew him out. PM me if u dont want to say

[RichardS]

Originally posted by Sarcophyton874
Yeah this happens to fish stores out here in SoCal also. Most stores here overcharge for fish/corals that are already condemned; the going rate for a medium toadstool is like $45-50. Luckily, some stores realize that their prices are inflated, so you can end up haggling. Other stores sell the same corals for $25-30 and eventually they die.

However, inflated prices is just one problems here in Socal. Most LFS employees don't know what the[profanity] they are talking about. There is only one LFS in my area, out of five, that actually knows this hobby. The only problem with them is that the owners are straight up [profanity].

We should all open our own LFS lol.

Yeah, you should open one. If you do please come back to this thread after a couple of years of owning an LFS and let us know if you've changed your views at all.

[billsreef]

Sarcophyton874 and pbukow,

You both need to go back and reread the [ua], use of profanity is expressly forbidden.

[chimp]

[Sarcophyton874]

Richard, I actually know a great deal about how a LFS operates. The employees, especially the owners, work very hard to keep the store running. Some of the LFS owners in my area work 60+ hours a week, which is cause for their unsatisfactory customer service. But just because you're a hard worker doesn't mean you get to be a grouch; you're not the only person in the world who works hard.

As for pricing inflation, I understand why it's done. Many LFSs either don't take care of their livestock properly or they have a crappy supplier. Some stores might as well stomp these animals out on the floor, at least they wouldn't suffer in a crude attempt at an aquarium. Consequently, the fish/coral end up perishing and the price is then raised on the "surviving" bunch of animals(simple economics). It's unfortunate that we, the consumers, have to cover the cost of an inferior LFS. Crap LFSs really need to be boycotted.

I would never open my own LFS, I was kidding. I couldn't bring myself to accept so many "already in the pet cemetery" animals.

I would also like to apologize to RC for my use of profanity. It was my poor attempt at setting a tone for my post. I should know better than that.

[AngeloM3]

Sounds like a call to PETA is in order!

[yrema]

well, is sure do hope PETA would do something about it.
I don't know how things go by there, but in our case, not even the local government gives a damn. ugghh.

we tried calling up the bureau of aquatic resources and even some non-governmental organizations, but apparently we got shrugged off. (imagine my frustration when i called bfar then they told me to call a local NGO.)

What The Heck?!

not even the media gave a poo.
(emailed one broadcast network, and they considered my mail as spam.)

it all comes down to responsible consumer behavior. If no one buys hard (or impossible) to keep animals, then no one would sell them.

[gtrestoration]

Originally posted by yrema
well, is sure do hope PETA would do something about it.

Careful what you wish for.

Originally posted by yrema
it all comes down to responsible consumer behavior. If no one buys hard (or impossible) to keep animals, then no one would sell them.

Why not cut this off at the source, the collectors, making a few cents for the specimen.

Originally posted by freedive43
I've been collecting fish commercially for a bit now and over time I've had to wrestle with the dilemma of my job vs. the environment. At times we export over a thousand fish each week from Hawaii. My greatest worry is that these fish might end up condemned to (an albeit short) life in a poorly run LFS. As a precaution, we choose our customer base very carefully and use the internet to research the reputation of their store. Some of our best customers are those that spend the least amount of money because they recognize the holding capacity of their systems. A store can always order more fish, the important thing is keeping the ones they already have in good condition.

If you're making your decisions of who to sell to based on "Internet Research" of retailer's reputation I'm surprised you ship any fish at all.

SteveU

[vitz]

Originally posted by Lev F.
Oh boy, another rant.

This is just to let off some steam. My favourite LFS was the greatest LFS I had ever visited. The people were knowledgeable, the environment was always clean, the holding tanks were large, and the fish and inverts they sold were ALWAYS possible to keep in captivity. They once got in a Spotted Filefish by accident (they ordered orangetail filefish), and they put it in their coral tank to help it survive. At the back tank, which was supposed to have sharks, had a lot of "rescued, un-buyable" fish, such as fish with missing eyes, large fish returned to the store ( like a 2-3 foot long snowflake moray they had) and such. I knew both of the managers well, and they also knew me well, and we would trade coral frags regularly. the other members of the team knew me quite well also.


But one day, it changed. About a month ago, one of the managers quit the job. A new manager came to take his place. how bad could it be? Very bad indeed. he fired half of the team, and replaced them with Petco-like knowledge employees that can't tell a feather duster from a tube anemone. But it gets worse. He was being such a ******,and so full of himself, that the other manager (the guy who worked the fish room, and placed the orders), quit also. This is when things started to go down the drain. (no pun intended!) Things started coming in that shouldn't have.

At first it was minor. A couple of Flagfin angelfishes and a Rock Beauty. Then they started getting Moorish Idols. P. Tuka was starting to become a regular import. And they ordered twice the amount of stock that they could possibly hold. The once-large holding tanks had been divided by plastic dividers so it would be easier to catch the concentrated fish. The prices started rising. the A. Nummifer that I obtained for $29.99, were being sold for $200 as "rare black frogfish." The shark tank that held the unwanted fish was destroyed, the rocks removed, and now it holds a single pipe, which the snowflake moray use(d) to hide in. They also put an enormous A. commerson in the tank. It ate everything but the eel. The eel couldn't really move from that one pipe. It died. On the tank were some drawings of sharks and it read "SHARKS COMING SOON!!" the tank was 4'000 gallons. They ordered a couple of blacktips. they died on their first night in the tank.

Then the tanks were being crammed with incompatibilities. Triggers with lionfish. Large Angelfishes with Anthias. But yesterday was where I found it to be the most disturbing I had ever seen it. The once Nice, Friendly, Knowledgeable LFS, had turned into somthing like PETCO.

All of the tanks were divided with eggcrate or plastic dividers. Dottybacks, Grammas, and Reef Lobsters were condemned to little plastic containers with no shelter to prevent them from fighting or eating others. A 5 inch container held 4, 5 inch long toad fish, which were practically sitting on each other. No shelter was provided. And here is the scariest of all, the fish I saw that day that were occupying those tanks that were impossible, to near impossible to keep in captivity:

Moorish Idols
P. Tuka, about 10 individuals
Spotted Filefish
Triangle Butterflyfish, a pair.
Crinoids.

and a couple of other species I can't remember.

And the other ones. Take this as literally as it comes: THE FISH WERE RIPPING EACH OTHER APART! Lionfish with clipped fins, Frogfish housed with bite-sized morsels, Anthias with practically no fins, dead fish in every tank.


Basically, it's gone. One small change in management, and a nice fish store turns into a money hungry warehouse. I could go on, but I think i have said enough. Thanks for listening.

change in management happens because of the owner, where the buck eventually stops-shouldn't your dissapointment be directed towards the owner who allowed/let/permitted/caused the change to happen ?

[yrema]

Why not cut this off at the source, the collectors, making a few cents for the specimen.

gtrestoration> thought of that too actually, but there are far too many sources here, and the suppliers tend to be ummm.. violent.

and if you got no money to buy food for your family, i don't think you'd listen to anyone giving you some advice on what to get and what not to get.

we've talked to some fisherfolks in a certain beach, and most of their income comes from collecting exotic species, including sharks and rays. (I'd like to tell you guys about the sea turtles sold for 80 pesos [around 2 dollars, more or less] incident but that's another sad story.) We've asked them what species are always on demand, most species are almost impossible to keep. Most are sold to importers, the remaining rejects are distributed to common LFS here.

[Kengaroo131]

i would rather seen the place burned to the ground then torture all thows nice fish. what a waste...

[shiftyfatdwarf]

yeah that really sucks when it goes from someone who cares about the fish and the reef to someone who cares about money!

[adamhaulena]

^^

I wonder if it is actually making money? Seems like the place is in disrepair and anyone who walks in can see it...

Who wants to buy fish that are all tattered, unhealthy and with dead fish everywhere? This house of horrors will not be too appealing and is probably bleeding money...