MH upgrade questions

[H20Sidhe]

OK,

I think I have done enough preliminary research to now "ask the experts":

I have a 48"x13" canopy that I want to add MH lights into. I have a 4" muffin fan mounted in each end. One is on all the time, the second is SUPPOSED to be controlled by a temp. sensor, but it rarely seems to be running any slower or faster.

Right now I have 2 PC bulbs mounted in the hood.

I THINK I want to add 2 150w HQI lights & I THINK I want to use electronic ballasts. I know that the MH will need UV glass covers. Will this give me enough light for any SPS my heart may desire?

I found, then lost, an online light store located in Sac which advertised help with DIY - anyone know who that is?

Also my fiancee has offered to buy me a bigger tank (then my 55 can be handed down to the discus fish, and their 30 gal can be used as a sump for the new system). Since I don't want to buy entire new stand & canopy (which might push fiancee's generosity into unpleasant limits) I looked before & I thought I found a 65g with a 12.5" x 48" inch footprint. Would the 150w MH lights still be OK for the additional 3 or so inches of depth? Or should I be thinking 2 250w from the very start?

OR - does anyone have a 75g or 90g setup that they want to off for cheap?

An unlimited budget sure would be nice . . . but if I went back to work, I would have no time for my hobby!

Sherie

[TotalKhaos]

If I went back to work I'd have the money for the hobby but no time to spend it on my hobby, as well. I know the feeling.

The 2x 150w you are talking should be plenty for your tank. I ran 2x175w over my old 90 which worked great.

My advise is to keep your eyes peeled for used setups while you are looking. I purchased all my lights used and they are great. I have magnetic ballasts - I'm sure everyone can list off why electronic is better than magnetic but I've had no problems and those few bucks saved sure do make a difference.

Check the Selling forums regularly, as well as craigslist and ebay. I enlist the help of MARS members regularly to help me find good used deals. It always works (thanks MARS).

In this hobby, Drygoods hold their value. If My Lights were my Car I'd not owe more than its worth LOL.

If You find the right deal and money is ok, I would say the bigger the better. go 250w if you can but is not necassary for your current system or even a slightly larger system. Whenever possible think ahead in this hobby!! You have mentioned upgrading to a larger tank many times and I can tell you really want to, If this is your plan within the forseeable future then definitely get the most lighting you can afford.

However you do it, acclimate your corals to the light slowly so as not to blast em by the New lights.

Oh BTW: I run my lights with no Glass/ lens or other splash gaurd. The Lights are 10 inches from the water and do not get moisture or splash on them. You should be able to keep pretty much any SPS you want with the lights you mentioned.

[H20Sidhe]

Selling forums?!? Woohoo!
Where?

[H20Sidhe]

FOUND 'EM!!
Hooray!

[TotalKhaos]

here on Reef Central - On The Forum List Scroll down to the bottom - You'll see the trading Forums there. Lots of goodies there

[dots]

If your not too hung up on using a canopy, which does look cool but heats up the tank and then you may run into having to buy a chiller with the MH's, you may want to look into the coralife light setups that come in either 150W or the new 250W MHs with PCs and moonlights and cooling fans, a nice all in one package.
I have the 150's and love the setup, yes had to get used to not having a canopy, but the pluses far outweigh the minuses. The tank runs cooler and is easier access to the water without trying to get over the hood. Besides the coralifes, there are a few others that people have used but I don't personaly have any experience wilth them. I am partial to ditching hoods now.

[Reefugee]

Sherie,

Personally - I don't think there is a great difference between a 55G and a 65G. You are gaining a couple extra inches of height. The extra height really doesn't add much to the tank. If I were you, I would look for something with more depth. But then you would have to look at getting a different stand and canopy. If it was me - I wouldn't bother with a 65G since you already have a 55G.

IMO, two 175 watt MH would be fine for either a 55G or 65G. Those extra 3" of water won't make a difference for anything towards the top of the tank - only those on the bottom. But I tend to keep softies and LPS at the bottom - and those don't need quite as much light as SPS. If you ever plan on upgrading to 90G or 120G - then you might want to consider 2x250watts. However, 2 x 250 watt MH over a 55G is A LOT of light.

Do you know what lighting fixture and ballast you are looking at? I have the IceCap electronic ballast, and many people consider them one of the best ballast around.

BTW - if you need help with DIY - just post it on this forum. There a lot of very knowledgable people in MARS who are willing to give free advice. If you want someone to do it for you - that might be a different story.

Minh

[TotalKhaos]

those are cool setups - I like them - But am partial to my canopy. I invested 4.99 in a 4 inch clip fan and that keeps things nice and cool for the MH's.

BTW: How tall is your Canopy Sherie?

[Reefugee]

You don't need a glass shield (for UV) if you run a single ended (SE) bulb. Double Ended (DE) bulbs require a UV glass shield - otherwise you can kill your livestock. DE is suppose to be brighter than SE (watt for watt) - but I don't know by how much or if it is really significant. A good reflector is very important. I have the lumenarc, and I love them - but they are big. I am seriously thinking about replacing them with the lumenarc SE.

Sacramentodots - has a good suggestion with the fixture. They are nice and easy to use. I have my lumenarc hung from the ceiling, and my GF really likes it that way. She prefers not to have a canopy.

Originally posted by TotalKhaos
Oh BTW: I run my lights with no Glass/ lens or other splash gaurd. The Lights are 10 inches from the water and do not get moisture or splash on them. You should be able to keep pretty much any SPS you want with the lights you mentioned.

[Reefugee]

Sherie,

I noticed that in the For Sale forum, you posted interest in a complete 100 gallon tank for $1200. $1200 for it doesn't seem too bad. But personally - I would not consider that tank for one simple reason - the lack of it being reef ready. I like tanks with overflows because it helps skim the surface. I previously had a 55G where I had bulkhead drilled in back like his - and I I was always trying to figure out how to do surface skimming. Anyway - just my opinion and experience.

Minh

(Wow - two posts in a row. I guess that's what happen when you work on a Sunday, and you have to wait until software installs. LOL)

[H20Sidhe]

Wow,

It is SO nice to get all this help!

Minh - I wanted to ask someone about that 100g - the price seemed OK for what it includes, but it is still alot! He is throwing in a 55g setup for no extra cost. BUT I thought that 'predrilled' & 'reef-ready' were the same thing! No need for an overflow if 'reef ready'. Please educate me. [I already bought a used CPR overflow after reading on another thread that CPR was the s**t. Then I read here that CPR causes tanks to overflow when it loses siphon! Live & learn. Now I guess I should sell/trade the CPR.]

I know that 65 is not much more than 55, but the increase I was thinking of (of course you can't read my mind) is the addition of the 30g sump; an increase of probably 25g if I run the sump 'half full'. Also, I'm trying to break my fiancee in gradually to the costs of this hobby. He's been wonderful so far, but how far can I push this before he sends me back to work? The 65g would allow me to stiill use my same stand/canopy. Except that I will need to put the old 55 on something if I am going to move the Discus into it!

In the same way that I favor electronic ballast, I favor DE MH bulbs for the reasons you stated - more light per electricity sucked, and as far as I can tell, they are smaller and cooler. [I want the best efficiency I can get, and as little noise as I can get].

I've been drooling over the complete fixtures that require no canopy, but my common sense keeps bringing me back to the simple fact - how can I justify dropping $600-$800 to buy one of those, when I already own a canopy with fans & PC lights? Isn't it more economical to just add to what I already have? [Or completely replace with an economical, used, turn-key, bigger system].

[H20Sidhe]

Oh, sorry TK!
I missed your q the first time - my canopy is 14" high (11.5" inside height).
I am next going to try to post a pic of it.

[Reefugee]

Reef Ready (RR) and predrilled are two completely different thing. If you look at his tank - it's predrilled with the holes in back (usually). This also means that you have to keep your tank a little further away from the wall. IME, it's hard to get good surface skimming with a predrilled tank. I had one, and I hated it. When I broke it down to install my 120G, I felt guilty about selling it, so I didn't. Ended up giving it to Marc for some experimentation.

A RR tank has an overflow box inside the tank (not one of those external overflow). There is a hole at the bottom of the tank that allows water to the sump.

Complete fixture can be expensive. There is a company that sells complete fixture for pretty cheap. http://www.aquatraders.com . I have heard mixed review on these system. I *believe* they use an electronic ballast. The reflectors on the bulb is not that great (why did they use the pitted reflector?). Also - I heard the bulbs aren't that great. But for $300, you get 2x150W DE HQI 20000K, 2x96W PC actinic Blue, and 6xLED moonlight. Oh - support from this company is pretty bad too. :P (If you prefer 2x175w bulbs, it's $340) .

Oh - if you are going to keep SPS - dont foget to add in the cost of a skimmer and either a closed loop system or extra PH inside the tank for flow.

Minh

[H20Sidhe]

Minh,

Thank you for the explanation. I understand now. Predrilled does not equal reef-ready. Needs overflow, either internal or external.

My fiancee will be quite relieved to know that I am not interested in the $1200 tank setup after all. When I asked him about it, he said "we need to talk". I can nickel & dime him, but that big an outlay all at once caught him off guard!

At least I already have a protein skimmer! I just ordered a new part for it. It used to skim really well. I've never had a nitrate problem (I need to find some wood to knock on now). It used to sit on a shelf outside the tank, but it drained the tank onto my livingroom carpet too many times. It is now inside the tank & I will be very happy to move it into a sump. It is also a holdover from my early days - but if it ain't broke . . .

I took a photo of the canopy for Totalkhaos, but in the process of trying to attach it to my post, I find that it must be first on the internet somewhere. In order to post it in my Reef Central gallery, it must be no biger than 55k. It is 900k & I have no idea how to reduce the file size!

I am learning today how much I really do not know. Was it Mark Twain who said "Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt?" But I AM learning - thanks to you all!!

Sherie

[Reefugee]

900K is a large photo. You might want to use some sort of phot editing program to reduce the size down - to something no bigger than 600px wide. You might also want to keep the size reasonable (no more than 100K?).

There's a lot of good commercial products (my favorite is PhotoShop - but it's $$$$). There are some less expensive ones (such as ACDSee) that are really good too. You can also use free tools. Irfan View (which seems to be well liked) is free but IMO has a clunky interface.

Assuming you are running Windows XP (or 2000).

You can download a Irfan View 3.98 (free image viewer/editor) at http://www.tucows.com/preview/194967 . During the installation process, it will give you an option to install the Google Desktop Search. I recommended that you do not install the Google Desktop Search. Once the program installs, run the program.

1. Open the image you want to edit:
File --> Open and select the image

2. Image --> Resize/Resample

3. Select the size you want.

4. Save the image. By going to file --> Save As (make sure you pick Save As). Give it a new name.

There goes your resized image.

I use a service called Photobucket to upload my image. You can find direction to Photobucket at http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=531326

Oh - another great free image editor program is GIMP. http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net . I would use GIMP if it wasn't for the fact that I have access to many of the commecial programs.


BTW - there is always something new to learn in the this hobby. I still consider myself a newbie. Just last week, CaliforniaDreamer explained to me the importance of Mg. I am sure next week, I will learn something else new in the hobby.

Minh

[TotalKhaos]

no pic is needed - no worries. I was just curious.

When I upgraded to halides with my old tank I had to redo the entire canopy because it wasnt tall enough. Yours will be fine.

[H20Sidhe]

I'm not running Windows XP, I'm running OS X (panther). ; )
I do have photoshop, I guess I'll play with it a little. It only runs on OS 9. I never paid attention to what size file my photos were before this. If photos show up, then that means I figured it out.

[mcox33]

I have a 90 with 400 watt MH SE 14K Hamilton bulbs. 4 pc's 2 are 12K and 2 are Actinic.

Get all the light you can afford. The more the merrier. IMO

[H20Sidhe]

I found the web store again. Anybody know this guy?

http://www.aquauniverse.com

Sherie

[H20Sidhe]

More research enlightens me that aquauniverse.com supplies lights built by Catalina Aquariums (it was Catalina's site that I found then lost originally). Since Catalina is one of the vendors sponsoring the WMC, I'm thinking I should wait & visit their booth at the conference.

I re-read the studies that Sanjay Joshi did on MH lights, and found that he is still studying more bulb & ballast combinations from different manufacturers & of different wattages. My previous conclusion that I would probably want HQI & electronic ballast was based on articles he wrote several years ago. I was looking mainly at efficiency - the least electricity needed to produce the most light in "usable" and visually pleasing spectrum. The additional data he has published now puts me into information overload. I"M SO CONFUSED!!

I am very excited that he will be speaking at the WMC, and slightly disappointed that the components made by Catalina have not been studied. Anybody here enough of a scientist to actually measure PAR in their own tanks? Anyone have lights made by Catalina? What I really want to achieve is best coral health and tank appeal per $$ spent - initial set up plus ongoing cost (monthly power bill and bulb replacement). It seems the best way to try to measure this is by a PAR to $ ratio. Am I on the right track?

Of course, all my info. is theoretical & I know there is no substitute for actual experience. [My ex loves the story of the college boy who was so rigidly adherent to 'theory' that he insisted on installing the exhaust fan in the phosphorus plant backward & ended up blowing the whole tower up.] I would rather not make all the expensive mistakes myself!

Because of the comments by mcox & TotalKhaos, I'm now considering 2 x 250w instead of 2 x 150w.(Thanks for your input.) Other than the monthly electric bill, it seems the cost difference between the two wattages is minimal. But, after the 'talk' with my fiance, it seems it will be some time before I get a new tank. He was thinking tank alone, not stand, canopy or anything else. He had no idea I was already scheming on upgrading the lights and adding a sump. [Little by little I will get that fresh water man acclimated to reef standards!] He did say that if I really want to get more lights, a sump AND a tank which will require larger stand & canopy, we will build the stand & canopy ourselves. That means that it will be awhile . . . we have other carpentry projects to finish first.

SO - If I add 2 x 250w, I will be runnning 692w over an 18" deep 55 gal. It seems like alot to me . . . TK you said you ran 2 x 175 over a 90, sacramentodots you said you run 2 x 150MH w 2 x 96PC over a 75 (how deep is a 75?); how much light do the rest of you guys have?

Sherie