Breeding Fuzzy Dwarf Lionfish Update

[M.Dandaneau]

I posted this in the "aggressive fish" forum in response to a question and as an afterthought, thought some of you might be interested as well.
Oh, they definitely hatch alright, and so far each successive spawn has been bigger than the last....the two are together again tonight, so I'm expecting spawn numer 9.
At hatching, the fry are phototropic and all go to the surface if the light is on, and, as previously stated, where the live plankton also collect, they too being attracted to light.
At day eight the young simply die of within a matter of an hour or so, almost simultaneously, and as closely as I can tell, this is consistant with the results anyone else who has spawned them in captivity has had.
While watching the Discovery Channel in a program about giant squid, a fact was brought out that has me considering another possibility......in their trawls, all the larval squid were collected not from the same depth, but rather from levels that were the same temperature.
This got me to pondering the fact that established lionfish colonies that they've found here in the Atlantic are consistantly roughly 12 miles from shore (the limit where ballast would be dumped from incoming ships) and about 150 feet down, ranging from the Gulf of Mexico to as far north as New York.......in other words, in cooler water!
I'm now wondering if perhaps the die offs might not be temperature related, rather than a problem with the food, thus am planning on trying to reduce the temp in the hatching tank with the next brood or two and see if the results differ.....perhaps in the wild, once the larvae have hatched they sink to an appropriate depth during the first night and remain there until a certain size is reached before dropping out of the water column and settling on a reef.
The fun part is often what's NOT in the books, eh?
Here's a photo of the yellow topped male...he finally came out when I had the camera handy!
The substantial variation from fish to fish in wild caught specimens makes me think that they would be an ideal candidate for selective breeding to establish color strains, much like has been done with many freshwater tropicals......yellow, red, brown, orange, striped etc.
Once keeping the fry alive has been achieved, the rest ought to be even more interesting.
I've also posted a warning to anyone trying to breed lionfish in tanks with LR or coral that the gelatenous egg masses seem to be highly toxic once the fry have hatched out, not just distasteful as I've seen published otherwheres.....in the attached photo, the white spot on the LR where the egg sack came to rest (in the center of the photo) is completely bleached out and lifeless, even after 8 days post hatching.

[M.Dandaneau]

I missed observing the actual spawning by five minutes!
If you look closely, you'll see the gelatenous egg mass directly above the female, the upper fish.
This spawn contained a small number of eggs compared to the previous two, which contained about 1,000 eggs each........estimate about 200-250 this time.

[xxaquanutxx]

Neato', how do you tell the males from the females?? What are you feeding them?? Maybe it is not nutritious enough for them?? Are you using selcon or anything else in conjunction to feeding the fry?

[M.Dandaneau]

The female is the one that lays the eggs!
All kidding aside, the males have larger heads and pectoral fins, plus, just prior to spawning(4-12 hours) there's a small "nipple" (genital papillae) at the vent of each fish, with the males being thin and pointed and the females appearing more conical or rounded.
Yes, the food is being enriched, both artificially raised plankton and wild caught plankton from the Gulf of Mexico (a strong light is suspended over the water in the night...the plankton are phototropic and rise to the light, forming a dense cloud directly underneath)
Other reports of spawnings likewise have a die off at about 6 days, no matter hwat food is used, leading me to wonder about the temperature factor...it would seem logical that planktivorous young would likely rise and fall with the plankton layer in its daily migration to and from the surface, but this is only guessing so far, along with observation of other species in the wild.

[xxaquanutxx]

good luck, let me know how it goes!

[JHardman]

Cool!

So if you don't mind a couple of questions...

1) What is the size of the larva when they hatch?

2) Have you observed evidence that the larva are actually eating what is be offered? E.g. kink tail "strikes", visible stomach contents.

3) What size is the plankton you are feeding?

I guess what I am trying to get at is relating this to my knowledge base which is primarily clownfish.

For example with clownfish, you will feed fortified L-Strain rotifers for the first food. When observed from the top a larva feeding on rotifers will have two black bulges, one eyes, the other the full gut.

But you have switch them to a larger food source at around 4-8 days (depending on species, as some hatch smaller than others) or they will wither and die. The problem is that the net gain from hunting and eating is zero or negative, i.e. they spend more energy hunting than they get from hunting.

The classic hunting/feeding behavior is for the larva to float/swim behind a meal, kink their tail and "spring" forward. Another that I see in older fry is the whale shark behavior, where they simply swim rapidly with their mouth open catching anything that lands in their gapping hole.

I am not discounting your thoughts on temp, just seeing if you have fully investigated the food angle first.

[xxaquanutxx]

thats a really good thought!

[fossil]

This is a really interesting thread. Your lions look great by the way. What do you feed them? Also I was wondering if your dwarf lions perch on rocks alot, when ever I see them in the LFS thats all they ever do.

[M.Dandaneau]

Sorry for the delay....I've not been able to get on line since the "Maintainance".
We've had this pair since March or April, purchased at about 2" because of their appearance and just got lucky in getting a pair that get along.
Since day one we've fed them live marine ghost/grass shimp and live small feeder fish, never worrying overmuch about converting them, since we live near the seashore.
The female decided she didn't appreciate waiting on the days we weren't able to resupply and started eating pretty much anything about 1 1/2-2 months ago, to the point that's she's now somewhat of a hazard.....if you don't get the food into the water fast enough, she'll leap up and try to snatch it from your fingers.
This obviously increases the odds of her jumping out of the tank if I get careless and forget to replace the eggcrate cover, plus makes her a danger to my fingers from an accidental impalement/venomation.
The male is STILL holding out for live food, but has started to follow pieces of shrimp (particularly the head and antenna portion) so I believe he'll soon be switching over as well.
Hanging in the LR, yes, most of the time......these guys are primarily nocturnal, with all their main hunting, travelling and lovelife occuring once the lights are off for the night.

[fishreefoctobreed]

years back when they were experimenting with raising angels they wound that they didnt like the smaller zooplankton(rotifers etc.) because it doesnt have that characteristic jittery swim pattern like the brine and others have. for some reason the angels were attracted to that motion and wouldnt feed on and food that didnt have that swim pattern. since fuzzies are picky (even later in life) and they are attracted to certain prey as adults maybe they are also like the angels and will only eat those small "jittery" prey items. such as baby brine shrimp and other pod planktons. and like jhardman asked have you noticed full guts? cause that is the most likely reason why breeders fail. if it was a temp problem they would die sooner. and by lowering the temp you might just make them use up their food stores slower and because of that they might live longer but they would still starve! please answer hardman's questions cause i have a dwarf that i would very much like to mate!

thanks

[M.Dandaneau]

You have me at a disadvantage, JHardman, as I've never bred clownfish and can't make a comparison on size at hatching other than to say that they are very tiny, literally mere specks on the surface of the water, just barely visible to the naked eye (at the largest, the size of newly hatched brine shrimp naupillae).
As to foods, we've added rotifers to the water but are also getting live, wild plankton from the Gulf of Mexico......while this is far less "scientific", we're doing this on the hopes that there will be a wide array of types and sizes of food items available to the fry and thus, hopefully, increase the odds of at least a few surviving.
We're also aware, of course, that this also means we are likely introducing predatory plankton forms into the tank that are feeding on some of the fry as well, but with published spawns ranging from 2,000 to 5,000 eggs we're hoping that at least some will eventually survive (at this stage, one or two would be reason for a champagne celebration! )
Our young adult fuzzies, by the way aren't producing nearly that many eggs yet per spawn...the first one or two looked like an estimated 100 or so, but more recent spawns have many more visible eggs inside the gelatinous mass, with a conservative estimate between 400 and 1000.
We're attempting to raise the fry in a 6 gal. tank with an old fashioned sponge filter (we run a normal filter until eggs are introduced, then shut it down and rely on the bubbler afterwards) and so far water parameters seem to be holding up fine this way.
As always, of course, any suggestions or tips are always appreciated......attempting this makes raising newly hatched FW bettas or gouramies look like a pre-schooler's project in comparison!

[JHardman]

Originally posted by M.Dandaneau
You have me at a disadvantage, JHardman, as I've never bred clownfish and can't make a comparison on size at hatching other than to say that they are very tiny, literally mere specks on the surface of the water, just barely visible to the naked eye (at the largest, the size of newly hatched brine shrimp naupillae).
As to foods, we've added rotifers to the water but are also getting live, wild plankton from the Gulf of Mexico......while this is far less "scientific", we're doing this on the hopes that there will be a wide array of types and sizes of food items available to the fry and thus, hopefully, increase the odds of at least a few surviving.
We're also aware, of course, that this also means we are likely introducing predatory plankton forms into the tank that are feeding on some of the fry as well, but with published spawns ranging from 2,000 to 5,000 eggs we're hoping that at least some will eventually survive (at this stage, one or two would be reason for a champagne celebration! )
Our young adult fuzzies, by the way aren't producing nearly that many eggs yet per spawn...the first one or two looked like an estimated 100 or so, but more recent spawns have many more visible eggs inside the gelatinous mass, with a conservative estimate between 400 and 1000.
We're attempting to raise the fry in a 6 gal. tank with an old fashioned sponge filter (we run a normal filter until eggs are introduced, then shut it down and rely on the bubbler afterwards) and so far water parameters seem to be holding up fine this way.
As always, of course, any suggestions or tips are always appreciated......attempting this makes raising newly hatched FW bettas or gouramies look like a pre-schooler's project in comparison!

As a comparision in size... A L-Strain rotifer is about 53µ at its widest point. A newly hatched maroon clownfish larva is many times as long as a L-Strain rotifer, which they tend to not eat much of or any of at all until 2-4 days of growth off the yolk sack. See attached photo, the small dark "dots" are L-Strain rotifers. Note the silver colored guts that have a few rotifers in them.

On the next hatch, assuming you have a more or less infinite numbers of spawns to work with...

Try to see if the larva are actually feeding. You should be able to see if the gut is filling or not at the least. You should observe sighting, stoking and striking of food items.

Try to get a size comparison, don't worry about trying to compare them to clownfish, compare them to something known, e.g. L-Strain rotifers, scale on a microscope, etc.

If they are as small as you are implying, chances are that you do not have a small enough food for them. For example with your wild collected plankton, if you are sieving at say 125µ then you are feeding 125µ- or only things smaller than 125µ of which it is possible that only a very small percentage is less than say 25µ. But without further and finer sieving, you have no idea of the percentages of size ranges being offered.

My best guess is that you will have the best success with plankton that is in the size range of 1/3 to 1/5 of the size of the larva. This maybe a real problem or very easy depending on the larval size.

Bottom line, if you are not seeing full or filling guts on the larva, you are having a feeding problem. Which could be one of or a combination of several factors. Size being one of the most important, if it don't fit there is no forcing it. Lighting is also a factor, if you can't see it, its pretty hard to eat it rather it is from being blinded by the light or too dim or to reflective. Motion is also another factor, if the motion is not seen as "pry" then it is not going to be eaten.

[M.Dandaneau]

Very well written, and all points taken and noted......I really wish this had occurred at a point in my life pervious to needing 325+ power magnifiers to read written print (this organic matter is decaying a bit faster than some others )
We've already considered the size factor and are trying to assure this isn't the problem by gathering and doing water changes with natural sea water, rather than attempting to strain out the appropriate sized micro-organisms and simply removing visible organisms that are larger than the fry as best we can.
We're bringing in the seawater every other night, roughly 5 gallons per collection, obtained under a very strong metal halide security light attached to the dock of a local yacht club that is removed by a considerable distance from other lighting, eg street lamps, in an attempt to get maximum yield.
The water is collected in a container equipped with a battery operated aerator to prevent as much die off as possible until we get it home.
Upon entering our residence, it's allowed to slowly warm, still aerated, before introduction into the fry tank via partial water changes, with a light over the collection container in hopes that the phototropic tendencies of the plankton, like brine naupillie, will give a greater concentration per feeding.
We're also hoping that by getting as varied a collection of plankton as possible that we'll be getting at least some that will trigger a feeding response.
I know the system is full of holes, but it's truly the best I can think of so far.
Re photographs, my camera is only 2.5 megapixels, thus images of the newly hatched fry is next to impossible at this time...I'm still trying to locate a friend with a better camera in hopes of correcting this.
Again, thank you.
Mike
ps.....spawning #10 occurred in the middle of the night.
This time, I was unprepared as they had spawned two nights previous, even though I'd noted that the two fish were staying very close even during the daylight hours, one of the normal precursors of breeding activity.

[oceanarus]

I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon of not the right sized food in sufficient quantity.

By the feeding method you have described it is difficult to tell what and how much they are getting.

In my struggles with raising the Yellow watchman goby I have noticed:

1) that some fry will survive as much as a week without any food, most dying off around 4-5 days.

2) If they are given the right sized food but not at a sufficient quantity for a long enough period of time, they will perish as well. I tried using clam larva at the trochophore stage of development wich are certainly small enough, but due to the nature of that food, it is only good for about 12 hours and to be able to maintain a constant supply for the fish would take a hercleon effort.

Things I would recomend for you:

1) Sieve your plankton as you collect it and only use what is in the 25 - 100 micron range. Putting the larger plankton in there is doing no good, they are either, eating your fry or eating the plankton that is small enough for your fry. Sieving will also give you a better idea of actually how much of the smaller plankton you are putting in there.

2) Culture S-strain rotifers. This way you can give them food in larger quantities with less effort and can maintain them at a high density. Food density is very important when you are talking about having several hundred fry in the tank.

3) Get a cheap microscope. It is easy enough to take pictures through one with a digital camera. The Yellow watchman goby are so small the only way I could tell for sure that they were eating (besides living longer than they had w/o the proper food) was to look at them under a microscope and see the silver bellies. You could also put the fry along with their potential food on the slide and you will easily see if it is small enough for them to consume.

Good luck and keep us updated!

[Luis A M]

very exciting thread!
What species are they?D.zebra?.
Could you show links to other breeding reports?