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  #126  
Old 01/05/2008, 10:36 PM
MrSquid MrSquid is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by greenhut
Can someone that has received their skimmer comment on overall build quality? Can you compare to other well know skimmers?
The last skimmer I used was a 6' high custom built unit at the LFS I worked at 10 years ago. A lot has changed since then and I have nothing modern-day to compare it to. But the build quality (to me) seems pretty solid. I was a bit concerned with how tight the collection cup would be, but it is REALLY tight!

One very minor thing to me is that the air line (more like a really thin rubber tube - almost like a REALLY thick latex) for the venturi kinks really easily. It had a few extra inches and that made it kink all on it's own. I trimmed the length down to fit and now it's fine. But I'm going to be running ozone through mine so I'll probably end up replacing it with an ozone-safe line anyways.

For the money so far it LOOKS like it'll be a nice unit. I hope that's still the case once I get it dirty.
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  #127  
Old 01/05/2008, 10:50 PM
dgill dgill is offline
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IMO this skimmer design is more comparable to BK internal skimmer vs. ATI. And I know it could be argued either way, but some consider ATI a cheap knock-off of BK. The MSX series happens to use the mesh-modded Sicce pumps like ATI, but keep in mind that Tunze uses the same pumps (although they use a needlewheel). The Sicce pump is nothing "proprietary". Just like Deltec, H&S, etc. all using Aquabee, Eheim, etc.

Having owned Euro-reef, Deltec, H&S, etc. I was convinced my next skimmer would be BK. The Red Dragon pumps are incredibly energy efficient (low wattage yet lots of power) and the craftsmanship is second to none.

That said, I decided to give this skimmer a try... how can I afford not to? Consider you could buy and trash 3 of these units for the price of a BK... although I do consider quality important.

Well, today I received my MXS250 and although I won't have it hooked up for a while (new tank on the way), I can tell you the build quality is beyond expectation for the price The construction is heavy and solid, the seams are remarkably straight and clean (especially where the tapered neck meets the body). This skimmer looks and feels great.

Only time will tell regarding performance but we know these pumps are capable of pulling 700-800 LPH of air at ~30 watts. The pumps do run hot but this is not as much of an issue with submerged, in-sump operation. If we get anything close to 1500 LPH of air at < 60 watts IMO this skimmer will be a clear winner in the VALUE and PRICE PERFORMANCE categories.

Also, I have personal experience and frustration like many with the cost of replacement pumps on high-end skimmers. For me a pump failure was usually an excuse to rationalize a skimmer upgrade vs. shelling out for a replacement pump at $500. Another important point: these Sicce pumps are readily available and I've seen the mesh modded versions for < $100 new.
  #128  
Old 01/05/2008, 10:50 PM
cashman95 cashman95 is offline
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It sounds like to me, that some people might be a bit mad that they could have actually paid too much for their skimmer!?!??!

How about instead of moanin and groanin, you guys with the DEEP pockets buy a MSX skimmer and put it up against your namebrand one then give us an opinion thats worth reading!
  #129  
Old 01/05/2008, 11:49 PM
dgill dgill is offline
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Okay, here is a picture of my MSX250 recevied today:

  #130  
Old 01/06/2008, 12:04 AM
BaNDiTo_RoX BaNDiTo_RoX is offline
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One thing I don't see on there website is the rating on these new skimmers, Without and with Bio Load.

By the way nice picture on the MSX250 now we need to see it in action.
  #131  
Old 01/06/2008, 12:12 AM
DOTZ DOTZ is offline
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Whats soo good about this skimmer? Good price or new idea? What is the site were it was bought at?
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  #132  
Old 01/06/2008, 12:19 AM
USC-fan USC-fan is offline
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Why are some of you guys jumping on luke? He been a great poster on this forums of years and shouldn't have to put up with this stuff.
  #133  
Old 01/06/2008, 12:50 AM
dgill dgill is offline
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Some of you asked about the neck of the skimmer and how the cup attaches... in this close-up you can see the silicone ring that is recessed inside the neck. The inside tube of the cup extends slightly (1/2") and fits down inside the black ring. Its snug and I expect the silicone ring will need to be kept clean and and lubricated to make it easy to get the cup off when needed. The cup does have a built in drain. Note the thickness of the black ring and the quality of the routing and finish work. Very good IMO.

  #134  
Old 01/06/2008, 12:55 AM
dgill dgill is offline
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One other nice feature, at least on the MSX250 (not sure about the smaller versions). The bubble plate is actually two pieces and I expect this helps prevent the plate from cracking if the thumb screw is overtightened. Nice touch but maybe ATI and others do this as well?



  #135  
Old 01/06/2008, 01:00 AM
dgill dgill is offline
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One other note... the outlet pipe assembly is not glued so it can easily be swung 180 degrees or more allowing you to direct flow.
  #136  
Old 01/06/2008, 01:08 AM
JRaquatics JRaquatics is offline
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DGill you take some awsome shots. Are you using a photobox?
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  #137  
Old 01/06/2008, 01:17 AM
dgill dgill is offline
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JRaquatics - thanks! Believe it or not its just a white sheet tacked up on the wall and draped over a card table, but I have some really good photography lights with color temperature of 5500K and this helps.
  #138  
Old 01/06/2008, 02:19 AM
hahnmeister hahnmeister is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by dgill
One other nice feature, at least on the MSX250 (not sure about the smaller versions). The bubble plate is actually two pieces and I expect this helps prevent the plate from cracking if the thumb screw is overtightened. Nice touch but maybe ATI and others do this as well?



I bet its so that you can open up/remove the bubble plate for cleaning w/o needing to have a flange on the skimmer to open it up enough. I tinkered with the idea with regards to external cone skimmers... because flanges are even more of a problem/larger than with normal skimmers then. So a bubble plate that could come apart into more parts seemed like the best way to be able to open up the skimmer/remove the plate for cleaning. The other option was a flexible bubble plate... some sort of rubber most likely, that would be removed.

Its a good idea though... this skimmer looks to be a well thought out design.
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  #139  
Old 01/06/2008, 02:29 AM
dgill dgill is offline
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hahnmeister - you're absolutely right and I didn't even think of that at first. It would be impossible to remove the plate if it were one solid piece. This eliminates the need to make the bottom removable like we see on ATB, BK, etc.

BTW on the bubble plate they even routed out the top of one piece and bottom of the other along the center line allowing them to "seat" nicely and prevent a gap.

Here is a picture of the BOTTOM of the bubble plate after being removed:


Last edited by dgill; 01/06/2008 at 02:52 AM.
  #140  
Old 01/06/2008, 02:47 AM
TK3 TK3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sjm817
Putting a product to market is more than simple manufacturing costs. There are also R&D costs...unless you dont need to do any R&D. Thats like complaining about the cost of a software program or movie because it costs nothing to make a CD/DVD.
But $800 for Office 2007 seems reasonable, right? People wouldn't pirate or rip off these products if the companies weren't beating consumers over the head. $1500 for acrylic with a pump or two? R&D - HA! Testing skimmers might be the cheapest R&D on Earth. They either work well, work OK, or not at all.

That being said, you DO have the option to buy something else.
Not everyone gets to drive a Ferrari.
  #141  
Old 01/06/2008, 09:40 AM
bkelley02 bkelley02 is offline
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MrSquid, when you find a place to get the replacement tubing for the venturi, let me know. Mine keeps kinking too.
  #142  
Old 01/06/2008, 10:41 AM
sjm817 sjm817 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK3
But $800 for Office 2007 seems reasonable, right? People wouldn't pirate or rip off these products if the companies weren't beating consumers over the head. $1500 for acrylic with a pump or two? R&D - HA! Testing skimmers might be the cheapest R&D on Earth. They either work well, work OK, or not at all.

That being said, you DO have the option to buy something else.
Not everyone gets to drive a Ferrari.
My point was that there is more to the cost of bringing a product to market than the manufacturing costs. The reason for the SW analogy is I had a conversation with someone recently who was trying to justify pirating (stealing) software because "it only costs $0.50 to make a CD. Anything more than that is a ripoff". BTW, Office 2007 does not cost $800.
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  #143  
Old 01/06/2008, 10:58 AM
BaNDiTo_RoX BaNDiTo_RoX is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by BaNDiTo_RoX
One thing I don't see on there website is the rating on these new skimmers, Without and with Bio Load.

By the way nice picture on the MSX250 now we need to see it in action.
So does anyone have this info?
  #144  
Old 01/06/2008, 11:40 AM
luke33 luke33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by bkelley02
MrSquid, when you find a place to get the replacement tubing for the venturi, let me know. Mine keeps kinking too.
Lowe's, menard's, hd, ace....etc
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  #145  
Old 01/06/2008, 11:47 AM
flipteg flipteg is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sjm817
My point was that there is more to the cost of bringing a product to market than the manufacturing costs. The reason for the SW analogy is I had a conversation with someone recently who was trying to justify pirating (stealing) software because "it only costs $0.50 to make a CD. Anything more than that is a ripoff". BTW, Office 2007 does not cost $800.
i agree... no one is forcing anyone to buy anything... if you think the cost of a software or movie is unreasonable or you can't afford it, then don't buy it... just don't justify pirating because you think companies are "beating consumers over the head..."
  #146  
Old 01/06/2008, 01:00 PM
daytonreefRob daytonreefRob is offline
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Quote:
[i] Your post is in violation of the terms and conditions of use of this web site and has been edited. Further violations will result in revocation of your posting privileges.
[/B]
Sorry guys, I will keep my distance. I did not intend to offend nor break the rules.
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  #147  
Old 01/06/2008, 01:10 PM
ThaNgBOm321 ThaNgBOm321 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrSquid
LOL! No - no tinkering here. I'm a DIY'er, but I'm not a modder. And actually that's a Rigid drill - but the black case sitting behind the skimmer is a monster DeWalt bit set. (I'm still putting my tank together, so the drill's getting lots of use with mounting stuff in the stand - see my build thread in my sig for pics)
heh.. i actually dint see that orange/red ridged drill on the right.. i only was the black box.. lol.. and that looked like a dewalt drill box.. im gonna go look at your build now.. hope i can find it..

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  #148  
Old 01/06/2008, 04:10 PM
MGB MGB is offline
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The more you look at these skimmers, the more you wonder or question the design. There are quite a few significantly different aspects between these skimmers and the ATI BM.

They both use the same pump, but as far as the chamber design, it's completely different. The BM's introduce the air water mix at the bottom of the chamber, into a significantly larger space than the Xtreme skimmers mixing chamber. After going through the bubble plate the air water mix is channeled up the body of the skimmer, almost to the beginning of the neck, via an internal tube.

In the Xtreme's case after the air water mix clears the bubble plate it spreads out and fills the whole chamber. The exiting water in the BM flows down the outside of the inner tube and exits via the riser pipe arrangement. The exiting water on the extreme skimmer flows passed the internal injection chamber via some slotted openings and then exits the body again via a riser pipe arrangement.

At first glance both seam workable designs. We know the BM design works, many skimmers have been tested and have been running for some time now with good results. My only concern with the Xtreme skimmers design would be too much turbulance in the body of the skimmer from the powerful pump and excessive micro bubbles being intrduced to the sump, an annoying problem. However, both these issues are pure conjecture on my part.

The question ATI and the designers of the Xtreme skimmer both had to deal with was how to harness the powerful air water mix in the body of the skimmer in order to reduce turbulance and minimize exiting micro bubbles and at the same time maximize the skimming potential. Those are design problems that if achieved, result in one skimmer being more efficient than the other. I'm guessing it takes a lot of testing and more than a little design ingenuity in order to achieve the best results.

If I was a betting man, Im guessing that ATI did a little more brain storming than the manufacturer in china, however I could be wrong, after all wasn't the US the first to put a man on the moon, ... Oh that's right they stole that technology from the Germans!
  #149  
Old 01/06/2008, 05:34 PM
dgill dgill is offline
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MGB - agreed the design is not an exact copy of ATI and is much closer in design to the Bubble King Deluxe models. The BK 250 is 10" diameter and 25" tall and does not use an internal chamber. The MSX 250 is remarkably similar:

  #150  
Old 01/06/2008, 05:36 PM
homebrewdude homebrewdude is offline
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The bubble king parts are red....
That might make a difference!
 

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