Common Misconceptions In the Hobby

[Kaos]

Originally posted by virginiadiver69
Kaos, your signature kind of adds to this discussion. Also, you being in the coast guard (Thank You) should know better than many how cruel the ocean can be.

I need to somehow change how I worded my occupation. I'm not in the USCG (even though it appears that way). I'm a contractor for the USCG that overhauls their C-130H's. I do work on the largest CG base in the U.S. Needless to say I am a very big fan of the CG and the work they do. I do know the cruelness of the ocean first hand though. Living really close the the Outer Banks I have spent and do spend allot of time there.

Sorry to interrupt, I just didn't want to take thanks that belonged to someone else.

[rynon]

Here's my 2 cents on all of this. DON'T WORRY SO MUCH ABOUT EVERYTHING. While being careful is a good idea, such as QT, you do not need to go nuts with all this stuff. I have LPS, SPS, softies, shrooms, zoas, etc. All in the same tank. I believe flow is important but alk swings.........big deal. My alk ranges from 8 Dkh to 12.5 and I've never had it cause any problems with anything. Also your tank being "sterile" for SPS is another myth IMO. My tank is not sterile by any means, I have algae, small amount of nitrates......0.2, obviously phosphates if I have algae. My acros look great, in fact they LIGHTEN color in my tank, so apparently the all mighty super important parameters are not as important as people think. I bought a purple aquacultured coral and in a matter of weeks it turned sky blue in my tank....due to lower nutrients, higher lighting, I don't know? All I know is that there are a LOT of people who do not go nutzo on all this stuff and have GREAT tanks. Nature.....whatever you believe, finds a way to make it work in TIME. I am not saying buffers, water changes, skimmers are not important, just that "swings" in numbers have not hurt a THING in my tank. I may come up with more later

[aninjaatemyshoe]

"Reducing the demand for wild corals may help some, but it won't make a very big dent in the amount of corals being taken from the reef. As large as it has gotten, the live coral trade is still small compared to other uses for the reef such as construction. Regardless of the demand from the hobby, there will always be more demand for corals than supply and the collectors will always need jobs. To truly reduce the amount of corals being taken, economic alternatives to harvesting from the reef have to be offered and simply cutting our demand doesn't do that. Eco-tourism and responsible aquaculture are two possibilities."

Agreed with this one. I've never been convinced that our hobby is a real threat to the reefs. It makes some impact, but when you consider what climate change and polution are doing, it is like a scraped knee on a cancer patient. I'm certainly not advocating unethical collection, and I think aquaculture is best, but there needs to be some perspective here. Our focus should be on projects to decrease oceanic pollution and promote sustainable methods of fishing/collection from the sea.

As far as the temperature thing goes, there is plenty of scientific evidence and reason to support keeping temperature at/around 78 degrees. The counter-argument that "their natural habitat experiences wild temperature shifts from low 70s to low 90s" is fallacious because we are not talking about keeping them in their natural habitat. There are differences, and keeping things optimal helps make up for other stresses we impose on our livestock. Granted I'm sure I can sit and read a hundred and one stories about how someone had a tank that survived a week of temps in the 90s, but how does this make it a good idea? I've gotten away with plenty that I should never have. Not once have I quarentined anything, not once have I had a disease in my tank. So? I should still do it. Just take measured risks.

[Sk8r]

I agree: I think at a certain point you arrange your tank as best you can, put in some corals and trade off the ones that, after a certain time, do not thrive; concentrate on the ones that do, and don't dose without testing---I think a certain amount of benign neglect lets a tank settle, in the sense that I don't want to be one of the guys that are so micro-managing their tanks that it's like riding a constantly jolting vehicle: lots of little bumps and corrections. I've had periods of good growth meet me after I've returned from vacation and my skilled tanksitter [who can't get there daily] has just been struggling to keep the skimmer going during one of its cranky phases: so much for ego, eh?

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by aninjaatemyshoe
"Reducing the demand for wild corals may help some, but it won't make a very big dent in the amount of corals being taken from the reef. As large as it has gotten, the live coral trade is still small compared to other uses for the reef such as construction. Regardless of the demand from the hobby, there will always be more demand for corals than supply and the collectors will always need jobs. To truly reduce the amount of corals being taken, economic alternatives to harvesting from the reef have to be offered and simply cutting our demand doesn't do that. Eco-tourism and responsible aquaculture are two possibilities."

Agreed with this one. I've never been convinced that our hobby is a real threat to the reefs. It makes some impact, but when you consider what climate change and polution are doing, it is like a scraped knee on a cancer patient. I'm certainly not advocating unethical collection, and I think aquaculture is best, but there needs to be some perspective here. Our focus should be on projects to decrease oceanic pollution and promote sustainable methods of fishing/collection from the sea.

As far as the temperature thing goes, there is plenty of scientific evidence and reason to support keeping temperature at/around 78 degrees. The counter-argument that "their natural habitat experiences wild temperature shifts from low 70s to low 90s" is fallacious because we are not talking about keeping them in their natural habitat. There are differences, and keeping things optimal helps make up for other stresses we impose on our livestock. Granted I'm sure I can sit and read a hundred and one stories about how someone had a tank that survived a week of temps in the 90s, but how does this make it a good idea? I've gotten away with plenty that I should never have. Not once have I quarentined anything, not once have I had a disease in my tank. So? I should still do it. Just take measured risks.

Our hobby is a very very real threat to reefs. The Philippines are a perfect example of this. Our hobby is certainly not the only factor that contributed to the destruction of the reefs there, but it's was a significant factor. Thing is, collection of corals isn't nearly as destructive to reefs as improper fish collection is.

My statement about temp is not fallacious, it's fact. At no point did I suggest people try to duplicate these extreme temperature swings, I was simply pointing out that the old belief that temperatures must remain stable is bunk.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

It isn't that we "must" maintain stable tank temps, it's that we "should." Like I said, people have gotten away with it, including me. But stable tank temp is something to strive for. As far as what temp to maintain, there are good reasons to stay below 80s, but I've never read anything that says we should be keeping the temp in the mid 80s. Temps above the low 80s encourages spawing in inverts (which can foul tank water), increases bacterial metabolism (which depletes oxygen), is less than optimal for calcification, and can be the activator for certain diseases. I said that your argument is fallacious, not because it contained incorrect information (which is not what fallacious means), but because it was based on an premise that simply doesn't fit our situation. We do not run oceans in our living rooms. The differences do matter and OPTIMUM conditions (not anything within a range of conditions that something can survive) is what we need to strive for to make up for the numerous factors in the ocean for which we cannot recreate.

As far as the destruction of the reef goes, I won't argue against ethical collection and keeping methods. Irresponsible collection methods have made an impact, but I think our ever improving efforts to reduce this are helping to minimize this. The sad fact is that our hobby is a miniscule wound to the reefs in comparison to the real problems of climate change and pollution.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Originally posted by rynon
alk swings.........big deal. My alk ranges from 8 Dkh to 12.5 and I've never had it cause any problems with anything.

But as you stated you don't keep sps. Alk. swings to sps is deadly. So obviously some corals do prefer/require different conditions.

[rynon]

I DO keep SPS and have never had a problem. I have NEVER lost a acropora due to anything. Every acro in my tank has lived, grown, colored up nicely and my alk swings all over the place. I can post some pictures if you'd like?

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

No need to get all on the throne. I do doubt the validity of your statement though, but no big deal.
I just don't see how you've had Alk. swings 'all over the place' and never lost an acro. That flies in the face of countless numbers of sps keepers experiences including my paersonal own.

How do you measure your alk., what does it swing from and to, and how often do you test it. Do you use a Ca. Reactor or two part dosing?

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by aninjaatemyshoe
It isn't that we "must" maintain stable tank temps, it's that we "should." Like I said, people have gotten away with it, including me. But stable tank temp is something to strive for. As far as what temp to maintain, there are good reasons to stay below 80s, but I've never read anything that says we should be keeping the temp in the mid 80s. Temps above the low 80s encourages spawing in inverts (which can foul tank water), increases bacterial metabolism (which depletes oxygen), is less than optimal for calcification, and can be the activator for certain diseases. I said that your argument is fallacious, not because it contained incorrect information (which is not what fallacious means), but because it was based on an premise that simply doesn't fit our situation. We do not run oceans in our living rooms. The differences do matter and OPTIMUM conditions (not anything within a range of conditions that something can survive) is what we need to strive for to make up for the numerous factors in the ocean for which we cannot recreate.

As far as the destruction of the reef goes, I won't argue against ethical collection and keeping methods. Irresponsible collection methods have made an impact, but I think our ever improving efforts to reduce this are helping to minimize this. The sad fact is that our hobby is a miniscule wound to the reefs in comparison to the real problems of climate change and pollution.

Once again, I'm not suggesting we try to mimic the everchanging conditions on a reef, nor am I suggesting people try to maintain temps on the extremes of the scale or even mid 80's. You're creating a red herring of my argument and then calling it fallacious. You're the one commiting the fallacy. Most indications point to low 80's being optimal since that's average for the areas where most corals are collected. Do you have an references to higher temps (above 80) being an activator for certain diseases or inhibits calcification.

Here's an article for you to read and think on.

http://www.reefland.com/rho/1105/reefc7.php

[rynon]

Here are some pictures.






That's just a few. The last coral got LIGHTER in my tank, it was purple, now blue. Vacuuming the sump and stuff like that is crazy IMO. I am not trying to fight with anyone, all of this is just my opinion. OH and this is a point and shoot cam.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by E-A-G-L-E-S
No need to get all on the throne. I do doubt the validity of your statement though, but no big deal.
I just don't see how you've had Alk. swings 'all over the place' and never lost an acro. That flies in the face of countless numbers of sps keepers experiences including my paersonal own.

How do you measure your alk., what does it swing from and to, and how often do you test it. Do you use a Ca. Reactor or two part dosing?

I'd like to point out that I do feel stable PH and alkalinty is far more important than temperature and salinity. Regular and drastic swings in either is cause for concern and can do harm IMO/E.

[rynon]

I do try to prevent alk swings but until I figure out my tanks demands I will continue to have them. I just got a kalk reactor and my alk went from 8.6 to 9.6 in one day so perhaps that will help?

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by rynon
I do try to prevent alk swings but until I figure out my tanks demands I will continue to have them. I just got a kalk reactor and my alk went from 8.6 to 9.6 in one day so perhaps that will help?

It should help you maintain your PH and alkalinty. Just keep an eye on readings and get it dialed in. You may have to supplement calcium and buffers in addition to the kalkwasser. In my tank and many others there is not enough daily evaporation to allow enough kalkwasser to be added.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

How long has it been running? The rock still looks fresh.
Just because it's new doesn't mean it 'has' to swing. If you tested and dosed daily you would keep it pretty stable.

[rynon]

Some of the rock is pretty new, some is old. I do have a problem with a lack of coralline....I cannot seem to keep up. I tested my water yesterday which showed my calcium at 385 and my alk at 8.6, today the calcium was the same.........not normal in my tank, the alk (like I said) went from 8.6 to 9.6. I DO know the kalk reactor is not going to keep me from adding supplement BUT hopefully will help some. Speaking of which I need to test my Mg. Thanks all for your thoughts...........I always appreciate new ideas!

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Originally posted by rynon
Speaking of which I need to test my Mg.

This is most likely the reason you are having swings AND are not growing coralline. Your Mag. is probabaly low.

[rynon]

Just tested at 1260. I added 75ml of Kents Tech M so it should be nearish 1300, I'll add some more tomorrow. I don't think this would cause a low alk problem though? My tank EATS calcium and alk like crazy....seeing a raise in alk without buffer makes me REALLY happy, and a steady calcium level is great too. I may add some calcium as well......which also contains magnesium so that should put me where I should be. Thanks again.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

No, low mag. will make it difficult to have stable Ca./Alk. params.
1300ppm is pretty good. I stay around 1320ppm. Anything in the 1300's is good - imo.

[rynon]

BTW I have 10K XM lights with no actinics......I believe actinic lighting also aids in coralline?

[Scalestfw]

My least favorite misconception is that corals and reef aquaria are more "difficult" than fish-only tanks. I find the opposite to be true. The easiest coral is far easier than the easiest fish, at least with the modern equipment that is available.

More expensive? Perhaps. But not more difficult.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Well, on the other hand fish can handle nitrates and overall less ideal conditions better than at least most sps.
But that does work both ways. There are fish, like the batfish and others, that do take more care than many types of corals require.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Rynon....I think the spectrum of light from actinic lamps of 420nm or 460nm do aide in coralline growth but I'm definitely not sure.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

I'll reference the issue about the disease tonight when I get home. Don't have access to it right now.

Peter, the article you referenced (and the follow-up article) is quite nice in outlining how the natural reef environment is not as "stable" as we tend to think. The second article also impresses that it is important for corals in their natural environment to have environmental variation, but more so with seasonal variation as upposed to day-to-day variation. However, it doesn't even go into the physiological or even practicle issues that separate the natural environment from the aquarium environment. It had very little in terms of reef aquarium husbandry, just the assumption that variations in temp, salinity, so forth must directly translate to the best husbandry practices for us. The article talks about evolution and adaption over long periods of change, but again this is not something we are experiencing in our little "pieces of the ocean." It does meantion that environmental variations are important for sexual reproduction, but how many of us are striving for that? If anything, sexual reproduction is what we want to prevent because we are not prepared to handle the explosion of free floating nutrients. And even if we wanted this outcome, the environmental cues would require even more equipment and control of conditions than we tend to use in our aquariums. I don't think it prepares a very convincing case in regards to reef keeping.

[ManotheSea]

Here is one that I beleive to be a myth. Please correct me if you think im wrong.

MYTH: Using bagged "live"sand and bottled "live" bacteria cultures will shorten new tank cycles. When I first got into salt water many years ago, i couldnt understand how these could possibly be alive after months on a store shelf. It never made any sense to me but no one was complaining. Most RC member giving advice even suggested its use. Now I see things much more clearly. Store bagged sand is dead sand.

I now use fresh from the ocean live sand. A new tank will not even have a cycle using fresh sand. Fresh sand does not smell horribly like dead sand in a bag does after some tank time. Fresh sand will not have an algae bloom stage. The cycle and the algae bloom comes from dumping a 15 lb bag of dead crap into your tank. For those who do not have fresh sand access, I highly recommend finding some one who can overnight ship fresh live sand to you. Another great alternative is to use dry sand and seed it with cups of live sand taken from your fiends tanks. The use of real fresh live sand will greatly reduce the cycle and the algae bloom if not eliminate them. This holds true whether the fresh sand is from the ocean, an overnight delivery from the ocean direct or from your friends donations. I have seen acros put into new tanks after the second day with no ill affects using fresh sand and cured live rock.