OK! Enough chat...Starting a 1000g+ Reef

[triggerfish1976]

Since I started running my Vortechs I noticed that the heat sink can get hot but when I remove the dry end and feel the acrylic it is not anywhere near as hot as the heatsink. Are the 140F temps measured from the heat sink or are they actually the temps. being applied to the acrylic because it doesn't feel that hot to me.

[triggerfish1976]

Originally posted by sherm71tank
Yeah, and before you speculate you should at least see where this "spot of crazing" has occurred. It's not in the middle of the tank for the love!!!!

Exactly. The crazing is occuring higher up on the tank which is condusive to stress caused by an under built tank.
As I have said on another thread related to this same topic, it is not uncommon for Metal Halides to cause crazing in the top portion of underbuilt acrylic tanks but do you see threads bashing the metal halide companies wanting them to replace their tanks or trying to make them redesign their product to make them run cooler? I don't think so.
At some point hobbyists realized that metal halides ran hot so they installed a fan to insure the tank was kept cool in order to ensure that the lighting would not do long term damage to the tank and to also keep the water temp.'s down. If anyone is worried that their Vortech is going to do the same then just run a fan on it.
BTW - I have yet to notice any heat issues on mine and they are basically in enclosed boxes.

[Acrylics]

Originally posted by jnarowe
That's a whole lot different than your previous suggestion that under load acrylic's real-life maxium operating temp. is 140F. So which is it? Is a tank under "normal load" not going to craze at 140F?

No Jonathan, it's not a whole lot different. It is a "max operating temp", not a nominal operating temp. I've never varied from that, my max range is and always has been 130-140F. If it (the acrylic) reaches that temp, shut the heat source down, whether it be from MH or a pump. No one can say what the safe "max operating temp" is in every situation nor every tank, it's not realistic, I just use 140F as a recommended shut-off point based on my experience, if you feel it's lower based on your experience then by all means use the lower number for a shut-off point.

It is my opinion that your tank probably has a lower threshold at which it will start having such issues. As an example, if you allow for a standard size tank such as a 72 x 30 x 30" using 3/4", the stresses on that material will be less than that of your 96 x 60 x 35" tank using the same 3/4" mterial. In saying this I'm not saying that this was the sole cause of the crazing, I think this point is quite obvious, only that it is a contributing factor, again IMO.

It is also possible that the pump may have heated up beyond the 140F number, which given the stresses on your tank, will tend to cause more problems than on a tank with less stress on it. In my conversation with you and in reading this thread as well as my conversation with "others", it is quite possible for the pumps to go beyond the 140F number. Please understand the 140F number is not an absolute, just a recommendation. You have stated that you thought the pump was malfunctioning, I believe you as I have no reason not to, it may have malfuntioned. But again, this is beyond my scope, I have no expertise with regard to that.

If you accept the premise that your tank (as of the moment) is the only known tank exhibiting these problems, then there ought to be a reason. I look at your tank size and the material it's made from and the stresses involved and a flag is raised that it probably is a contributing factor. The other primary factor is that the pump you used there heated up the acrylic past your tank's threshold at which point crazing can occur. It is simply my opinion that in all likelyhood, it is a combination of the two. Your tanks vertical panels have more stress put on them than I would consider to be of the "normal" range as your tank is larger than what I would recommend bulding from 3/4" material, the heat from the pump pushed the material over the edge so to speak, and the material released some of the stress in the form of crazing.

Aside from the above, I can't add anything further as anything else would be pure speculation and/or beyond my scope.

Again, JMO,
James

[jnarowe]

Thanks for the post James. Again your stated max. operating temp. is IMO, way to close to the shut-down spec. of the Vortech, and I believe this is why we are seeing this crazing in my tank. This was an easy mistake for Eco-Tech to make, since they were probably going by static heat specs. not stressed.

There is no doubt in my mind that this particular pump went way out of temp. range, and the reason why I state this is that I had two other pumps operating under identical ambient conditions and placed at the same level on the same panel, and they did not craze at all.

Please keep in mind that they were all set for approximately 60% of flow at the time. Currently I have two pumps running at 100% with dedicated fans, and a heat sink temp. of 100 - 109F. I am very happy with them. They are running silent, no stalls, etc. but they are also not on WWDs.

I have three running at about 80% and about the mid-point of the pulse mode with temps at 120F - 125F. In the past, I have measured heat sink temps. in excess of 140F multiple times, and even a few occassions where I got readings above 150F. Average ambient temp. is currently 73F.

There was a slight mis-statement above by trigger I want to clarify. The higher up in the tank, the less likely it is for crazing to occur because there is less stress (pressure) placed on the pane. I currently have moved them all to the top third of the tank, but unfortunately that does not give me enough flow around the rocks.

[ReefArtist]

Not sure if that was a mis-statement but I think it's more of what caused the crazing. The only acrylic tanks that I've seen with crazing has been at the top and the cause was heat from MH.

[jnarowe]

That's because of where the heat source is, but with the pumps, the heat goes with them. In the upper portion of the acrylic, there is far less pressure/stress than in the lower portion. That's the whole point James and others is trying to get across. The tank has crazed because there was abnormally high heat combined with high stress.

[dhnguyen]

You know it's a shame that all this could have been easily avoided had Eco-Tech rigged up a fan to mount onto the motor. Wouldn't be hard to do at all IMO. Infact I'm betting you could attach a CPU fan/heatsink to it.

[jnarowe]

That's what I wanted to do in the first place. I have one for you here to see what you can do.

[jnarowe]

And for people that feel I should just point fans at them all, you have to understand that I just don't have the room nor the electrical outlets to add 10 or 12 fans.

[sherm71tank]

Originally posted by triggerfish1976
Exactly. The crazing is occuring higher up on the tank which is condusive to stress caused by an under built tank.
As I have said on another thread related to this same topic, it is not uncommon for Metal Halides to cause crazing in the top portion of underbuilt acrylic tanks but do you see threads bashing the metal halide companies wanting them to replace their tanks or trying to make them redesign their product to make them run cooler? I don't think so.
At some point hobbyists realized that metal halides ran hot so they installed a fan to insure the tank was kept cool in order to ensure that the lighting would not do long term damage to the tank and to also keep the water temp.'s down. If anyone is worried that their Vortech is going to do the same then just run a fan on it.
BTW - I have yet to notice any heat issues on mine and they are basically in enclosed boxes.

The spot of bad crazing in question is in the bottom 1/3 of the tank.

[jnarowe]

Originally posted by triggerfish1976
BTW - I have yet to notice any heat issues on mine and they are basically in enclosed boxes.

How about posting what temp. yours are running at? I find it hard to believe, based on what I have seen in my system, other's systems, and the many posts about heat online, that running yours inside those boxes isn't presenting any heat build-up.

I could be wrong of course, but that just seems to be an impossibility to me. What are the heat sinks running at, and what speed and program do you have them on?

[triggerfish1976]

Originally posted by jnarowe
How about posting what temp. yours are running at? I find it hard to believe, based on what I have seen in my system, other's systems, and the many posts about heat online, that running yours inside those boxes isn't presenting any heat build-up.

I could be wrong of course, but that just seems to be an impossibility to me. What are the heat sinks running at, and what speed and program do you have them on?

I ran them for a couple of days on full speed and I did a temp. measurement of the inside of the box and it read 82 degrees and this was the one with the two pumps in one box. I have a decent amount of air movement in my canopy area from fans that I use to keep the tank itself cool so I am sure that the area is helping disipate the heat. I would also imagine that the water surrounding the box is also cooling the inside air a little as well.
The temp. dips down into the high 70's when I run the pumps on reef crest mode.

[jnarowe]

Very interesting. I hadn't thought about the water cooling effect. You may have just created a new add-on for Eco-Tech!

I am still curious about what the heat sinks are at. For me, if my tank room got up to 80F, my pumps at 100% would run at 140F plus. If your boxes are above that, then your pumps may be running as hot as mine. This can be noted easily if you run them at 100% and observe for a while. When the pumps get up to their rated max temp. they will slow down and that will be visible to you.

[triggerfish1976]

Originally posted by jnarowe
Very interesting. I hadn't thought about the water cooling effect. You may have just created a new add-on for Eco-Tech!

Liquid cooled would be a nice mod.

[triggerfish1976]

Originally posted by ReefArtist
Not sure if that was a mis-statement but I think it's more of what caused the crazing. The only acrylic tanks that I've seen with crazing has been at the top and the cause was heat from MH.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. My point was it has been proven that under built tanks are prone to crazing when excess heat is applied thus the lighting example. For some reason I was given the impression that the pump that caused the deep crazing was located near the top and not in the center or bottom portion of the tank.

[dhnguyen]

Originally posted by triggerfish1976
Liquid cooled would be a nice mod.

It is doable but would be dificult and cumbersome. Would require an additional pump just for the water circulation for instance and that will make the whole thing very big and ungainly. IMO the best option is a good CPU type cooling fan/heat sink unit built onto the motor itself

[bmwaaron]

Here are some pictures of my temps. This is the Vortech running at 100% for 20 mins (usually I run it about 60-70%).


This picture shows the temp and the back of the heat sink.


This is the temp right at the tank and the pump.

The ambient temperature when this picture was taken was 74 F

I have never seen a temperature higher then 86 ish when I run it at my normal speeds.

I think taking a temperature reading at the back of the heatsink is worthless because that metal never touches the tank. Notice in the second picture the temperature that is near the rubber on the pump is only 85.5 F
The tank temperature is 80.5F at the time of this picture.

[jnarowe]

On 3/4" tanks you don't use the rubber boot.

[bmwaaron]

But you would use the pad right?

[jnarowe]

yeah, the pad is what, a 1/16"? Seriously Aaron, do you think you can trouble-shoot this for me? I just had one of the new neoprene pads melt off the pump, and that was when the pump was running at 120F.

The only pump I have ever seen operating at 100% and below 125 was one that had a fan pointed at it.

[bmwaaron]

Originally posted by jnarowe
yeah, the pad is what, a 1/16"? Seriously Aaron, do you think you can trouble-shoot this for me? I just had one of the new neoprene pads melt off the pump, and that was when the pump was running at 120F.

The only pump I have ever seen operating at 100% and below 125 was one that had a fan pointed at it.

How are you taking temperature measurements? Are you using good reliable equipment?

I'm not trying to trouble shoot anything for you! Just pointing out that my experience is completely different. Maybe its the environment that you've created.
Polychloroprene (neoprene) can withstand temperatures up to 125 degrees C (257 F) so I find it strange that it would melt at 120F and I can give you sources from Dow if you don't belive me.
This pad even at 1/16" of an inch thick would disperse most of heat away from the tank. I understand your situation but don't belive that this is the fault of the Manufacture.

Sorry to have upset you with my pictures or experience.

[jnarowe]

too bad I threw that pad away. I could barely get it off the pump. And BTW, I don't "know" that iot was neoprene. That is an assumption I made based on how it felt.

As an example, I have on MP-40 running on my grow-out tank because the magnet has lost most of its magnetivity. That one is running at 120.4F (temp. of the heat sink) and 100.4F at the boot/glass interface. The ambient temp. for a cubic foot around the pump is averaging 64F.

So yes, it appears we are having a very different experience doesn't it?

And out of all the Vortechs I have ever seen and tested, I have never seen one running at a heat sink temp. below 125F without a fan on it, whether it was here or at another reefer's place

[triggerfish1976]

bmwaaron: How old are your vortech's?

jnarowe: How old are the pumps you have tested?

[jnarowe]

Mine vary from the second run MP-40, which is what, about 16 - 18 months, to brand new WWDs. Sorry, my memory for dates isn't so good, but I know my original pumps were the second production run.

[triggerfish1976]

Are the new MMD's running 120F? What about the other pumps you tested?

I ask because I have heard that the pumps that have came out since the WWD was released run coolor.