Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community Archives > Special Interest Group (SIG) Forums > Large Reef Tanks

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #426  
Old 12/19/2007, 11:43 PM
Acrylics Acrylics is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,438
Quote:
Originally posted by jnarowe
no one is saying that Vortechs are "tank killers", but what is being said is that they operate at a temp. too close to the working temperature of acrylic under stress.
I agree, they run typically at ~140F which is at the borderline of what I think it is a good working temperature, no question about that. I also stated that any heat spikes were not going to help the situation. But, there is in an inverse relationship regarding stress and heat. The higher the load (stress), the lower the working temp. This goes for almost any construction material.

There have been other threads in other forums regarding this and the primary thesis is that the Vortechs are essentially tank killers. Since much of these discussions originate here in this thread, I think this is the place to try to correct that. Whether they become problematic in other tanks remains to be seen.

James
  #427  
Old 12/19/2007, 11:51 PM
jnarowe jnarowe is offline
2011.5
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Poulsbo, WA
Posts: 9,742
No need to "correct" that on the users' end. It needs to be corrected by the manufacturer. And the stated gph will have to be lowered or another warning put in the manual.

James, come by for a vsit and put your hand on one. Have you talked to Steve about it? He's been here more than once and commented on them, and at the time, as I do now, I had them running at far less than 100% to keep them cool.
__________________
Jonathan--DIBS Breeder and Card carrying member of the Square Skimmer Brigade
(Click on the Red House to see my pics garage)
  #428  
Old 12/19/2007, 11:51 PM
sherm71tank sherm71tank is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,228
Quote:
Originally posted by Acrylics
If that's not the case Jonathan, I do apologize. I took that info from you on page 37 of the last part of this thread:
"And BTW, all the pumps crazed the tank in the early days because they were running hot. That was a superficial situation which I turned the other cheek to, and turned down the pumps so that they wouldn't operate above 130F."
You hadn't mentioned anything about moving them you simply stated that you turned down the pumps.

I wasn't referring to you Jonathan putting out any misinformation at all, but others have. Vortechs being acrylic tank killers and the like.

I do not listen to "interested parties" when it comes to my trade. No one influences my thoughts or opinions on this stuff, *especially* someone who might have an agenda. I sincerely hope you believe that.

I have no doubt that the tank would be okay without the Vortechs, just that they are not the sole causative factor of the crazing, that's all.

James
For the record then. The tank would be fine without the Vortechs? That's how I see it as well.

I've used all kinds of pumps. Most of which have been cheap Chinese knock offs and NONE of them have been reported to ruin the side of my tank or come anywhere CLOSE to the operating temps the Vortec pumps run at.

I'm not on the intellectual level that Jonathan is on but if I was I certainly would have made him happy WAY before this point if I was planning on selling my widget to a community as small as this.

A new product will have it's problems for sure but if you hang your customers out to dry I predict a slow and miserable company decline. It's a shame that Ice-Cap which has exemplary customer service should have their name tarnished with Eco-techs.
  #429  
Old 12/19/2007, 11:54 PM
jnarowe jnarowe is offline
2011.5
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Poulsbo, WA
Posts: 9,742
And for the record, I am having a Jolly Roger and staring at my tank. I swear the PBT just mouthed "HELP!"...
__________________
Jonathan--DIBS Breeder and Card carrying member of the Square Skimmer Brigade
(Click on the Red House to see my pics garage)
  #430  
Old 12/19/2007, 11:56 PM
lamarine23 lamarine23 is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Coarsegold, CA
Posts: 67
Those are lots of what if's John. I've never come across such a unique situation such as this....In all honesty I just don't know in regards to those scenarios. James could probably answer that better than I (regarding closed loop etc...). Depending on hole placement it may jeopardize the integrity, that is something during a design phase I would discuss with the manufacture...of course with that said the damage would not have been isolated to one spot. This is all speculation of course....

I am positive that no manufacture worth anything would risk their rep to build a tank with those dims and that thickness of material.

When I was designing that 540 (96" x 36" x 36") we talked about I was cleared hot with manufacture to do 3/4 sides only but the length would have to be 1" or there would be no warranty and from a liability stand point I won't sell anything that the manufacture won't stand behind.

Jesse
  #431  
Old 12/20/2007, 12:01 AM
sherm71tank sherm71tank is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,228
Yeah, and before you speculate you should at least see where this "spot of crazing" has occurred. It's not in the middle of the tank for the love!!!!
  #432  
Old 12/20/2007, 12:04 AM
lamarine23 lamarine23 is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Coarsegold, CA
Posts: 67
Talking

Quote:
A new product will have it's problems for sure but if you hang your customers out to dry I predict a slow and miserable company decline. It's a shame that Ice-Cap which has exemplary customer service should have their name tarnished with Eco-techs.
Let's not be so over dramatic please I get enough of that at home with the wife and kids.
  #433  
Old 12/20/2007, 12:11 AM
mrcrab mrcrab is offline
Parrot head
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,400
Quote:
Originally posted by jnarowe
And for the record, I am having a Jolly Roger and staring at my tank. I swear the PBT just mouthed "HELP!"...
No he said...you bastard, where's mine?
__________________
Proud member of PETA
People Eating Tasty Animals
  #434  
Old 12/20/2007, 12:13 AM
sherm71tank sherm71tank is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,228
Quote:
Originally posted by lamarine23
Let's not be so over dramatic please I get enough of that at home with the wife and kids.
If your 3/4" tank suffered the same fate you would think it was over dramatic? Even though it was advertised to be safe for 3/4" thickness? Leave the tears for your kids ok? Jonathan designed his tank around these pumps from the very beginning. Get it? See if that gets them through college.
  #435  
Old 12/20/2007, 12:16 AM
Acrylics Acrylics is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,438
Jonathan,

I make no assumptions on what you have or have not done regarding the moving of the pumps, I went strictly with what you wrote and drew a logical conclusion.
As for your relationship with EcoTech, well, that part is beyond my scope. I was simply looking at the crazing issue and the factors behind it, hope you understand

As for "correcting" for the pumps on the users end, I was simply stating there was an inverse relationship there, not discerning whose responsibilty it is to point it out nor correct for it.

Thank you for the invitation, next time I'm in your area, I will stop by. I have not spoken with Steve about them that I can recall.

Sherm71tank,
IMO, the tank would not be crazing as it is now without the Vortechs, however the heat from the Vortechs themselves will not craze acrylic unless there is substantial load already on the acrylic.

James
  #436  
Old 12/20/2007, 12:21 AM
jnarowe jnarowe is offline
2011.5
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Poulsbo, WA
Posts: 9,742
Isn't there always load on acrylic when used for aquariums?
__________________
Jonathan--DIBS Breeder and Card carrying member of the Square Skimmer Brigade
(Click on the Red House to see my pics garage)
  #437  
Old 12/20/2007, 12:25 AM
sherm71tank sherm71tank is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,228
The tank did not craze at all (in the 15 years or whatever the tank had been in existence (at your estimate that is subjective) previous to the Vortech technology) before the Vortechs and is certainly reasonable would not craze without them given the tanks history.
  #438  
Old 12/20/2007, 12:35 AM
lamarine23 lamarine23 is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Coarsegold, CA
Posts: 67
Quote:
If your 3/4" tank suffered the same fate you would think it was over dramatic? Even though it was advertised to be safe for 3/4" thickness? Leave the tears for your kids ok? Jonathan designed his tank around these pumps from the very beginning. Get it? See if that gets them through college.
Say what??? Dude slow down and relax!

Quote:
Isn't there always load on acrylic when used for aquariums?
Jon,
Yes there is but that is why they use a certain thickness to withstand that pressure.
  #439  
Old 12/20/2007, 12:39 AM
sherm71tank sherm71tank is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,228
Easy for me to relax. I don't have 1000+ gallons sitting on heavily crazed acrylic. No problem on my end.
  #440  
Old 12/20/2007, 12:48 AM
Acrylics Acrylics is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,438
There are significant differences Jonathan, you know that
Would you say that if your tank was made from 1/4" acrylic, that it would be even more susceptable to such stresses? same reasoning applies, it's simply more apt to craze under the same load. Call it load relative to material thickness.

Quote:
Originally posted by sherm71tank
The tank did not craze at all (in the 15 years or whatever the tank had been in existence (at your estimate that is subjective) previous to the Vortech technology) before the Vortechs and is certainly reasonable would not craze without them given the tanks history.
I'd agree with that. I probably should have used a term such as "at the upper reaches of it's potential"
OTOH, you can put a torch to acrylic and it will not craze. A normal load (my definition) is not enough to get acrylic to craze with the simple addition of heat.

James
  #441  
Old 12/20/2007, 12:57 AM
jnarowe jnarowe is offline
2011.5
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Poulsbo, WA
Posts: 9,742
Quote:
Originally posted by Acrylics
I'd agree with that. I probably should have used a term such as "at the upper reaches of it's potential"
OTOH, you can put a torch to acrylic and it will not craze. A normal load (my definition) is not enough to get acrylic to craze with the simple addition of heat.

James
That's a whole lot different than your previous suggestion that under load acrylic's real-life maxium operating temp. is 140F. So which is it? Is a tank under "normal load" not going to craze at 140F?
__________________
Jonathan--DIBS Breeder and Card carrying member of the Square Skimmer Brigade
(Click on the Red House to see my pics garage)
  #442  
Old 12/20/2007, 01:01 AM
dhnguyen dhnguyen is offline
Moved On
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kingston, WA
Posts: 4,753
Acrylic crazing aside. What good is a pump if it can't be run at 100% for fear of overheating?

I agree with Jonathan that the manufacturer needs to rewrite the specs for these pumps. A 3000gph rating is simply false advertisement if it can't be run at 100% IMO.
  #443  
Old 12/20/2007, 01:03 AM
lamarine23 lamarine23 is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Coarsegold, CA
Posts: 67
I run the pumps at 100% and no over heating so what are you talking about?
  #444  
Old 12/20/2007, 01:07 AM
lamarine23 lamarine23 is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Coarsegold, CA
Posts: 67
On a side note though I have noticed the pumps running cooler w/ the wireless wave drivers.
  #445  
Old 12/20/2007, 01:15 AM
dhnguyen dhnguyen is offline
Moved On
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kingston, WA
Posts: 4,753
Quote:
Originally posted by lamarine23
On a side note though I have noticed the pumps running cooler w/ the wireless wave drivers.

Right because it's not running at 100% continuously which also means you're not getting 3000gph out of those pumps
  #446  
Old 12/20/2007, 01:20 AM
lamarine23 lamarine23 is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Coarsegold, CA
Posts: 67
I know that.... but I also ran them before without the WWD continuos no heat issues there.
  #447  
Old 12/20/2007, 01:21 AM
dhnguyen dhnguyen is offline
Moved On
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kingston, WA
Posts: 4,753
Quote:
Originally posted by lamarine23
I run the pumps at 100% and no over heating so what are you talking about?

Well they are certainly overheating on Jonathan's tank. I've felt the motor while it's running, it's pretty frigging hot. I could easily imagine a small child being burnt by it if touched.
  #448  
Old 12/20/2007, 01:32 AM
chris wright chris wright is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Orange Australia
Posts: 573
So after all the debate, we still have no conclusion as to why the tank has crazed?

Thanks James for the information that you have provided. I honestly thought that considering the tank has been running for a fair time now that the heat was the problem. Could the age of the acrylic be the problem. I ask as I have no experience with it, but being a builder, I do see a lot of products that were advertised years ago to be great, but time has shown different.

This is a topic, especially conserning the vortechs that have quite a few people worried. As you have pointed out alot of people are reading this thread and are getting worried. I definately will not be buying vortechs based on the problems Jonathon has had, based on the fact of the customer service that i'm seeing is not what I would think to be satisfactory, not only in this case either.

Not being able to run is 100% is bullsh$t. If the heat issue is not fixed this product should be recalled, regardless if it is not the problem or not.
  #449  
Old 12/20/2007, 02:32 AM
melev melev is offline
TRC Leader
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Ft Worth, Tx
Posts: 25,791
Quote:
Originally posted by chris wright
This is a topic, especially conserning the vortechs that have quite a few people worried. As you have pointed out alot of people are reading this thread and are getting worried. I definately will not be buying vortechs based on the problems Jonathon has had, based on the fact of the customer service that i'm seeing is not what I would think to be satisfactory, not only in this case either.
If there were 5 cases or more, I could better understand people's fears. And even that would be just a handful vs. all the pumps out there. So far, it appears to be the only case in two years' time.

Out of all the posts I've read both on RC and our own club's message board, I've not seen people being treated poorly by EcoTech/IceCap's customer service. Post after post, customer service either replied quickly or the person posted that their issue was resolved. Which is what we would expect.

How they deal with this customer - that's what really is being discussed in this thread. It seems several people want EcoTech to buy him a new tank. When Kent's Sea Salt killed off livestock across the nation with the bad batch of salt, they offered replacement salt or some other equipment at the same value. They did not replace lost livestock, nor the money it would cost to replace the livestock.

In the end, I do hope everyone involved in this situation is content. However, the court of public opinion really has no bearing on this situation because as was pointed out, we don't know all the facts and we risk being wrong by assuming we do.
__________________
Marc Levenson - member of DFWMAS
  #450  
Old 12/20/2007, 03:57 AM
ReefArtist ReefArtist is offline
Underground Art Studio
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Largo, FL
Posts: 2,572
That said Marc, when it's not you or your tank it's very easy to "not feel the pain". I just can't believe the pumps put out so much heat, that alone is a reason not to purchase. So - are we saying acrylic just doesn't last that long? IMO - even better reason to go glass!

I also hope in the end everyone will be happy but I really don't think a company should drag their feet like this - either fix it now or just say "not our problem" and let their poor customer service put a end to the product.
__________________
ReefArtist
Without art I have nothing to say
(Click on the little red house and visit my 280+ build)
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef Central™ Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2009