Sumps are bad for reefkeeping

[kysard1]

" Don't use bioballs, but make sure you have a filter sock on your skimmer and drain. "

Do people realize that a filter sock is just as much of a nitrate factory as bioballs if not worse.

The waste gets trapped into the sock, the bacteria break it down to nitrate before it gets thru to the skimmer. The skimmer has no chance to remove it because it has been converted to nitrate.

That said I run a sock on my skimmer and my drain. Why? Because of micro-bubbles. There is no way around it with a damn sump.

The next big sweeping advancement in reefkeeping will be behind (slightly over) the tank sumps and micro-bubble free skimmers. The skimmer will actually have a shot at removing waste before it turns to nitrate.

Under the tank sumps IMO are a huge handicap of the hobby today.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Ummm....I don't use socks or bioballs
To each their own, but I couldn't disagree more. Where would I hide my heaters, extra live rock I don't want in my display, carbon media, if applicable PO4 reactor?
I use an external recirc. skimmer but most use in-sump skimmers, where would they put those?
The oxygenation from the overflows and return pump are benficial.
Micro bubbles are from faults in the plumbing set-up.
I don't grow much macro, but for those who do you need a fuge or sump with a light for that as well.

[ralphie16]

Originally posted by kysard1
"

That said I run a sock on my skimmer and my drain. Why? Because of micro-bubbles. There is no way around it with a damn sump.

The next big sweeping advancement in reefkeeping will be behind (slightly over) the tank sumps and micro-bubble free skimmers. The skimmer will actually have a shot at removing waste before it turns to nitrate.

Ever heard of baffles? Mine are installed to be a bubble trap, and i have no problems with microbubbles whatosever returning to my display.

Second, I own three skimmers and none of them produce microbubbles (two are tunzes and one is lifereef). So get a better skimmer. Or make a bubble trap.

Also, I have no filter sock or any sort of mechanical filtration and still no bubbles.

[kysard1]

Baffles do nothing to stop bubbles in my experience.


Those with a sump and no filter socks: have you turned off all your lighting in the room and tank and shined a strong flashlight from the top of the tank down to inspect for micro-bubbles in your display. You may be surprised.

If you can run a sump without micro-buhbles or filter socks you are way ahead 90% of reef sump owners.

I agree that an overflow is essential but the better way to do things is with a behind the tank sump instead of below.

[Engine 7]

kysard, it does sound like you have issues with flow threw your sump and some bad plumbing. Properly built sumps with correctly spaced baffles and properly sized return pumps will get rid of any problems you are having. I have owned a few home built sumps with various return pumps. I have never had a problem with micro bubbles. I have read threads before that dealt with micro bubbles and they always pointed to skimmers and pumps.
I dont think any of the information you posted in your second message is correct. Baffles do work to prevent micro bubbles, running socks and sumps withour micro bubbles is easy for everybody not 90%, and behind the tank sump...um...I dont even want to comment on that.
Rework and rethink your setup and your problem will be solved.

Jeff

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Originally posted by kysard1
Baffles do nothing to stop bubbles in my experience.


If you can run a sump without micro-buhbles or filter socks you are way ahead 90% of reef sump owners.

I agree that an overflow is essential but the better way to do things is with a behind the tank sump instead of below.

If they rae properly placed and set-up they sure do.

Thanks, but I think your numbers are off

Who can do that? That would tank another stand, look aweful to the eye and make it more difficult to work in.

[Toddrtrex]

Let see, I have 3 tanks, each tank has a sump with out a filter sock,
I guess I must be one of the 10% because I don't have any issues with micro bubbles.

And I look at my tanks with a flash light ( with the lights off ) more than I care to admit -- and unless I need to top off, no micro bubbles.

[HBtank]

I use no filter sock and my skimmer is fed directly from the overflow, so part of your point would be innacurate even if I did use a regularly cleaned filter sock on either feed to the sump.

I have zero micro bubbles from either my overflow or my skimmer using a VERY BASIC baffle setup.

There are many solutions to the problems that your personal tank experiences, solutios that fit in the context of a traditional sump which has much fewer size and structural restrictions than what you propose.

I would review some plumbing threads and proper sump flow/baffle threads if you need help. Try a direct overflow feed to your skimmer if you like the idea of getting the dirtiest water to it. Works great

[wooden_reefer]

Nitrogen mass balance!

If bioballs etc were the only biological filter, then the nitrate factory moniker may be justified. But when effective denitrification happens elsewhere, the nitrate generated by the bioballs will be removed. Bioballs are good as they get rid of ammonia and nitrite.

The nitrate concentration in a tank are governed by: rate of addition of nitrogen in foods, assimilation by algae and/ and then by livestock, denitification by bacteria, nitrogen fixation if significant, any of course net loss in partial water change.

[Sk8r]

A big ball of cheato is as effective as most filter socks: pipe the skimmer output to chamber 1, use chamber 2 for a refugium with lots of cheato, put the skimmer pump and return pump in chamber 4 [3 is heater] and you won't have microbubbles. A footwide cheato ball will absorb most anything, be it bubbles escaping the downflow or a little detritus that needs sopping up by the resident filterfeeders like dusters.

[AZDesertRat]

100G tank, 30G sump, no microbubbles whatsoever, no socks. The key is proper placement of baffles, equipment, piping and velocity(GPH) through the sump. Bubbles should never be a problem with a properly designed and constructed system.

[RichConley]

I dont have ANY microbubbles.


I dont have any baffles in my sump either. If you need baffles, your drain isnt designed properly. If you can't get rid of microbubbles even WITH baffles, your drain is a ridiculous mess.

[mr_o98]

I use filtersocks, have a skimmer, and have baffles in my sump. 90 gallon tank, 30 gallon sump and no bubbles. However, if I see bubbles in my tank I don't lose my mind and find every way to prevent them. If you have ever been snorkeling or scuba diving at a reef, you will see bubbles everywhere.
The prefix "micro" means to small to be seen with the naked eye. You would not be able to see "microbubbles".
Read This-
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-01/eb/index.php

[dots]

In response to the original post.........yes you are correct, but if used correctly, filter socks eliminate the problem of detirus accmulation if you rotate the socks reqularly and in a timely fashion. I like using them because you can remove the largest of the debris from the water first.

A proper sump design will not cause all of the problems plagued by people such as air bubbles........

My sump system was originally designed:

Flows into filter sock that is located in a remote SSB. What gets through the filter sock is settled out and feeds the SSB which is a low flow zone. The water then overflows and is nearly clean. The junk is still suspended is all that is pulled out by the skimmer.

I like not having to empty my collection cup daily.

My design is based on a process of using multiple stages of mechanical filtration as well as using the SSB for biological.

Some brag about how much thier skimmers pull out, my opinion is if there is nothing to pull out in the first place, why worry?

I have a BB tank and suffer from too little nutrients in the water, so I eliminated the filter bag all together for this reason and use it to tune the system just like I would adjusting the skimmate on the skimmer, feeding more/less, or doing larger/more frequent water changes. In addition I lightly sugar dose to elimate inefficiences in the system.

As I am trying to point out, there is more than one theory on nutrient control and a blanket statement like that is disturbing and potentially misguiding to "newbies".

But, I have done it myself many times........

[seattlerob]

Add me to the <10%> that have a sump but do not have microbubble problems. For the record, no filtersock or bioballs, but I do have baffles in my sump.

[pezcubano]

I'm with the 10% on this one. 20G sump on a 75G display tank, very simple baffles, fuge with cheato, no bioballs, no filtersock, and a skimmer.
I have very few microbubble issues.
Oh yeah, and I have my chiller feeding from and to my sump, thereby adding some additional turbulence and bubbles...

[hobbzz]

For those of you that don't use any mechanical filtration, do you occasionally have to siphon debris from the bottom of your intake chamber? The only reason I run a filter sock is that I only have a 20L, and don't have the room to manuever anything around to siphon out debris in the intake chamber that the sock currently removes...but I'd love to get rid of the sock...

I have a 10g sump, use regularly changed filter socks, have baffles, a separate chamber with cheato that's fed with a "T" off the main line, and I have no bubble problems except when topping off. My chiller also gets fed from the fuge and returns directly to the display.

[Sk8r]

Yeps, debris happens, esp in a new tank, new owner, where inexperience may occasionally cause a bit of precipitate as alk and cal run into each other in the additive dept. It gets better over time.

[DrHank]

And what about "nano bubbles"?

[hobbzz]

Sk8r - I was actually referring to things like uneaten food, feces, and other physical junk like that, nothing in the chemical precip department. My params in all areas including dosing are all in line. This is the smallest tank I've ever had a sump on. Over the last 6 years, all my other reef tanks were larger and I didn't have to worry about filter socks. But I don't have the room for a larger tank this time around.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by kysard1
Baffles do nothing to stop bubbles in my experience.


Those with a sump and no filter socks: have you turned off all your lighting in the room and tank and shined a strong flashlight from the top of the tank down to inspect for micro-bubbles in your display. You may be surprised.

If you can run a sump without micro-buhbles or filter socks you are way ahead 90% of reef sump owners.

I agree that an overflow is essential but the better way to do things is with a behind the tank sump instead of below.

Zero Micro bubbles here... 2000GPH through sump.
No filter socks or other filtration media.

My sump is thriving habitat full of sponges, worms, tube worms, tunicates, snails, starfish, copepods, amphipods, mysis, etc.

Your statements are based on YOUR opinion.

Micro-bubbles (you mean mini-bubbles, as micro bubbles could not be seen ) are not a bad thing. You appear to be under the impression that they are harmfull. In YOUR case, if you must turn the light out to see them, then you can not see them during the photoperiod. What exactly is the issue?

Not everybody has the ROOM for a behind the tank sump.

I have a 75 gallon display with AT LEAST another 75 gallons on the sump and above tank refugium. How would you propose that I stuff another 75 gallon tank behind the display? Ohh you advocate a smaller sump? Lets say I can fit 15 gallons in a tall slender "sump" that is directly behind the display and the same height and width.

What do I gain? Slightly less cost to move the water? What else? Nothing!

What do I lose?

I lose 50 pounds of LR.
I lose a backflow area for all of my equipment.
I lose a large habitat for sponges, worms, fanworms, etc.
I lose 50% of my system volume and therefore a LARGE portion of my bio capability.
I lose added chemical the stability that comes from a larger water mass.
I lose the added temperature stability that comes form a larger water mass.
I lose the benefit of being able to do LARGE isolated water changes if need be.
I lose the benefit of having a LARGE evaporation resevoir in case of ATO failure.

Sorry man... your just way off base.

[BeanAnimal]

When I started out I siphoned that stuff out of the sump... I don't bother anymore.

[hobbzz]

^ I was kinda wondering if people that just left the stuff sit there had any problems with nitrates...I'm assuming you don't see any considering you don't siphon? I'd really love to be able to get rid of the socks. The one on the fuge is easy to change, but the one in the skimmer chamber is a p.i.t.a.

[dots]

Whatever little makes it to the sump bottom, I stir up every now and then for the skimmer to pick up. About every 3-4 months I pull the sump out and because my SSB is in a little prefilter box I fabbed up, it lifts out and I am able to clean the sump out, which has nothing of real concern in it to begin with.

The ultimate goal for me is to keep it suspended until it settles in the SSB or the skimmer picks it up.

[mhltcob]

Originally posted by kysard1
Baffles do nothing to stop bubbles in my experience.


Those with a sump and no filter socks: have you turned off all your lighting in the room and tank and shined a strong flashlight from the top of the tank down to inspect for micro-bubbles in your display. You may be surprised.

Properly installed baffles will eliminate the vast majority of microbubble issues.

Why would I care about having microbubbles if I only saw them when i turned off all lights and used a strong flashlight to inspect for them?