Why a Calcium reactor instead of kalkwasser?

[Falko]

Yes. They have. But I don't know if they will fit on a CO2 kit. Everything I want here that is nice. I need to order on the internet. (Take note of were I live "South Africa"). The Btls they have here. Has a pin at the top with a small line cut-out in the middle. I will Post a picture later. But I think you will know what it looks like.

So If you order a bottle. What does the head look like. Is it a hole? Or does it look like a screw head. I tried to find some pics of the btls only. But they always have a meter gauge on. And I can not see what the fitting looks like.

[RustySnail]

Originally posted by Falko
Okay I think I lost you people some where along the way with all that info. Sorry for all of my odd questions. But I have never seen a calcium reactor before. And I will need to make one myself if I want one. My hardware resources are limited. If I order a CO2 tank via internet. Can I have it refilled at my local soda store, where they refill Soda stream bottles? Or do they use other gasses as well in there refill process?

A reactor should be simple to make; it's just a sealed chamber with a tray/open-cell foam pad in the bottom to keep the media elevated (for even circulation), and a re-circulating pump to move the water through the media at a higher rate. The inlet of the tankwater should be near the recirculating pump intake; same goes for the CO2 inlet. Outlet of the effluent should be at the top of the reactor. The flow of fluid should be from the bottom to the top for the recirculation pump.

I dont know why I did not make a simple reactor chamber out of PVC when I bought my K2R. Pretty simple to make a chamber, fill it with media and run water/CO2 into it. Of course this is the simplest design, newer reactors have more efficient means of utilizing the low pH (high flowrate; fluidized-bed media, etc).

You should be able to buy a filled CO2 bottle; check to be sure you dont have to buy an empty one elsewhere first. Get a regulator/needle-valve/solenoid/bubble-counter and you will be all set.

[Falko]

Are there some materials that are not to be used to build a
C-Reactor with. Due to the low PH? IMO I thing the PH is normal, and wouldn’t affect the materials. But what about the calcium?

And do you think it is possible to run a calcium reactor on fresh water?

[RustySnail]

Falko-

Yep; "low pH" is a relative term; the pH is only slightly 'acidic' in the overall pH scale, so no worries about it causing materials like plastic to dissolve.

Originally posted by Lutefisk
What better way of determining you have the proper conditions than to measure the alkalinity of the effluent?

I dont disagree with this; you should be measuring effluent alk to determine how much Alk you are adding. Best/only way to do that is to measure the effluent alk.

It sounds like reactor with a larger reaction chamber holding more media will help (especially if you are needing to add 2-part in addition to limewater). With a larger reaction chamber with respect to the the flow through the system you can obtain higher effluent alkalinity at the same effluent pH as a smaller reactor.

Yeah; that's where I am at. I need to pull more Alk out for the amount of CO2 that I am providing the reactor. I will probably make a second chamber; possibly re-circulating also so that there is more media to dissolve.

I think that you're on the right track. I'm sure you've read Randy's article on low pH.

I hope so... It make me nervous having the pH fall somewhat rapidly if the limewater stops. When the reactor shuts off due to low pH, the Alk rapidly depletes also (2 dKH in 8 hours).

I noticed that you're a mechanical engineer so I'm sure that you can appreciate the huge difference that bringing your effluent pH from 6.3 to 7.6 will make on your tank.

Yep, but knowing what the tank's pH is doing presently makes me glad that I ramped up the reactor output and stopped increasing where it's at. I could probably increase the effluent flowrate a bit and maintain the pH/Alk of the effluent, but doing so would just add more CO2. Definitely dont want that at this point. Getting the effluent pH up to 7.8 will make keeping the pH stable a breeze (I hope). I'm running a K2R reactor; it's got a small eheim pump for recirculation. I think it holds about 10lbs or so of media. My tank is fairly heavily stocked now (a few medium SPS sized colonies, several montiporas, SPS frags, LPS colonies) but not an overgrown 'stick-tank' either.

[AcroSteve]

Great discussion. I am currently using both, but hope to increase my CA reactor output to allow me to use saturated kalk rather than super saturated.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

And do you think it is possible to run a calcium reactor on fresh water?

Not a very effective one. I discuss that issue in this post:


http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...16#post4233916

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are there some materials that are not to be used to build a
C-Reactor with.

Any material that is suitable for long term exposure to water will be OK in a CaCO3/CO2 reactor. That isn't true of a limewater reactor, however, as the high pH can be a problem for some materials (like polycarbonate).

[Lutefisk]

Originally posted by woowoodengy
ok i agree with you guys on all these subjects
my reactor was set it and forget it because i have a cole parmer peri pump so my flow can not change. I run it at 55ml min and ph at 6.6 and this is very conservative for the shuran media they say to run it at 6.0 - 6.5 and 55ml min at the min but this is too much for my tank at the moment. I have a 90 gal with not that much demand for cal (not yet).
i know this is different from other reactors and i love it. If you are interested in the shuran read this
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...ghlight=shuran

as for aration imo you have to do this somehow. A second chamber would be best but i drain my effluent in the overflow and for me its enough to keep my tank steady like i said above 8.1-8.2 WOW!!!
but i only run co2 while lights are on so i know that helps too

The Shuran looks like a very nice reactor. I have a big Geo myself.

And, as you've discovered, once you getting it operating properly they are a breeze and your tank pH isn't an issue.

Here is a quote from Sanjay Joshi

Depressed tank pH

For an aquarium at equilibrium conditions there is a certain quantity of CO2 that can be maintained without reducing the pH. As this amount of CO2 is increased, additional CO2 will decrease the pH. Thus when adding the effluent back to the tank, there will always be some additional CO2 that will be added to the tank, that can result in a drop in the tank pH. This drop in pH will be higher if the tank initially has low alkalinity.

In my tank I have not seen any depression in tank pH. In fact, the tank runs at a higher pH since I added the reactor. This is possibly due to the fact that the tank is now running at higher alkalinity values and hence less susceptible to pH drop. I also think that since I am running a downdraft skimmer it may help to "blow off" the excess CO2.

Source article: http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog...hi_062997.html

IMHO one of the most important things you've done is to use a method of controlling the effluent flow that will keep it consistent (the second is to keep the CO2 flow consistent which is often easier). Unless you have consistent flows you're only guessing.

Congratulations on putting together a great system

Originally posted by Falko
Okay I think I lost you people some where along the way with all that info. Sorry for all of my odd questions. But I have never seen a calcium reactor before. And I will need to make one myself if I want one. My hardware resources are limited. If I order a CO2 tank via internet. Can I have it refilled at my local soda store, where they refill Soda stream bottles? Or do they use other gasses as well in there refill process?

Yes, you can make your own. Like RustySnail points out CO2 reactors basically are simple devices. Here is a link to a DIY reactor that you can buy most of the parts from a plumbing store.
http://saltaquarium.about.com/gi/dyn...ycareactor.htm

My first reactor was based upon this design and it worked very well.

I have my CO2 bottles refilled at a place that refills CO2 for soft drink dispensers. Others go to welding gas suppliers or fire extinguisher companies.

Originally posted by Falko
Yes. They have. But I don't know if they will fit on a CO2 kit. Everything I want here that is nice. I need to order on the internet. (Take note of were I live "South Africa"). The Btls they have here. Has a pin at the top with a small line cut-out in the middle. I will Post a picture later. But I think you will know what it looks like.

So If you order a bottle. What does the head look like. Is it a hole? Or does it look like a screw head. I tried to find some pics of the btls only. But they always have a meter gauge on. And I can not see what the fitting looks like.

I don't know this for a fact but I believe that the fitting on CO2 bottles is standardized (yes, I know they are different from the smaller paintball CO2 bottle fittings). But when I've been in different parts of the world they've looked the same.

Typically the tank will have a knob-like valve on the top with the output facing to the side. The output has male threads where the regulator attaches. The regulator has a large nut with female threads that tightens the face of the regulator washer to the output of the tank.

I wouldn't be so sure that you'll need to order a regulator from somewhere too far away. You can even find a used welding regulator (not an oxygen regulator - they have a different fitting).

In order to control the CO2 flow rate you need to control the CO2 pressure. This requires decent CO2 regulation and a good needle valve. My best sucess has been to go to a "2-stage" system. The first regulator is the typical type of welding heritage. The second regulator is from the pneumatic control industry and gives very fine and very consistent control.

BTW - most people fiddle with the needle valve too much. If your flow rate is close to where you want it just adjust the regulator up or down a few PSI rather than trying make fine adjustments with the needle valve.

Paul

[woowoodengy]

hey guys i found a very easy diy reactor i think this is the way to go. check it out
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...g&pagenumber=1

[Lutefisk]

I saw that reactor design when it was first posted but neglected continuing to read about it.

It should work just fine!

That person obviously has the same disease that I have - not being able to go through a store without thinking, "how can I use this on my reef?"

The main change I would make on it would be to place the reducer on the diameter of the recirculating loop tubing at the pump rather than the canister housing.

This will make a difference on the rate the water circulates, particularly by using the larger diameter on the pump intake.

Paul

[jfinch]

Here's a picture of my DIY reactor (using a maxijet 1200 for circulation):



They are not very difficult to build.

[Falko]

This is what our Soda Stream Bottle heads look like. I Suppose yours looks the same:



Do any of you know were online I can maybe order a fitting for this thing, and that will allow me to fine tune it for aquarium use?

Plus. Does it have any use to make the container of a see through material?

[Lutefisk]

Originally posted by Falko
This is what our Soda Stream Bottle heads look like. I Suppose yours looks the same:



Do any of you know were online I can maybe order a fitting for this thing, and that will allow me to fine tune it for aquarium use?

Plus. Does it have any use to make the container of a see through material?

That does look different than the bottles we typically use.

It is hard to tell from the photo but it looks like that is a relatively small bottle.

Most people use CO2 bottles that hold 5 to 20 lbs of CO2 (the bottles of course weigh more). Is it possible that the bottle you're looking at is designed for making small quantities of soda water?

Some sources of the larger tanks include welding suppliers, fire extingisher companies, hydroponic supply companies, etc.

Here is a picture of a tank from an online company. Unfortunately, it does not have a good picture of the fitting.
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merch..._Code=co2units

Paul

[Falko]

It is not very big. And contains only about 270 grams (0.6 lbs) of gas. But I have a entire bunch of them.



About how long would a 20 lbs container last you before needing to refill?

And what should the flow rate of the circulating pump be used in the reactor?

[Lutefisk]

20 lbs lasts me around a year or so - my best guess. YMMV depending your CO2 injection rate.

I also have a 5 lbs tank that I use when I'm waiting to go near a place that will refill.

[Falko]

OK... You have convinced me.
Here it is.



I'm going to build myself a Calcium reactor.

But I still have a few questions before I can build one.

1.
If I opt for kalkwasser. And you want to do a water change. How do you do so without affecting the calcium levels of the tank?

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

Ideally, the water change water is not that different than the tank water. If it is, then you may want to adjust it, although limewater is not usually the best way to do that.

So what is the best way?

2.
Do you think it is possible to run a calcium reactor on fresh water?
{I’m just interested}

3.
This is what our Soda Stream Bottle heads look like. I suppose yours looks the same:



Do any of you know were I can maybe order a fitting for this thing on the internet, and that will allow me to fine tune it for aquarium use?

4.
What should the flow rate of the circulating pump be that is used in the reactor?

5.
I read somewhere that a common effluent rate is 40 drops of water and 10 bubbles of CO2. But How do I know if this is the right rates to start with for my home made one. Or will I just need to discover that while tuning it?

Would you say I should start of my reactor with 40 drops of water.
And a small amount of CO2. And slowly increase the CO2 addition until I have the correct ratio?

Thanx everyone. All your info has helped allot.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So what is the best way?

Is your salt mix far off from your tank? If it is low, raise it with calcium chloride, if you want to.

Do you think it is possible to run a calcium reactor on fresh water?
{I’m just interested}

No. I gave a link on that above.


I don't know any more of the engineering details of the design of a calcium reactor. Perhaps others can advise you.

[RustySnail]

What's the volume of your system? You can use a standard filter cannister; but it wont hold very much media compared to a large dia PVC or Acrylic cylinder. You could use multiple cannisters to get extra scrubbing of the media; might help get more Ca/Alk into solution. You will want to feed the filter cannister in 'reverse' and fit a tube that goes down to the bottom of the cannister to create flow through the media. Or, you could just fill up a re-fillable cartridge cannister to get a similar effect. You can find re-fillable cartridges at www.buckeyefieldsupply.com (or elsewhere if you search around). If you use the refillable cartridge you can just connect up the plumbing in the standard flow direction, this will provide flow from bottom to top through the media.

The reactor chamber can be made square also if you want to use sheet stock; glue a drain clean-out fitting (large dia threaded PVC cap) to the top for access.

I have no idea how you would attach to that CO2 bottle. Maybe if you could buy the fitting that it attaches to on the soda-fountain (get the part from the mfr or find a repair/supply shop)then adapt over to a standard valve (w/flare fitting) so you can add welding-type CO2 regulator.

[Falko]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Do you think it is possible to run a calcium reactor on fresh water?

No. I gave a link on that above.

Sorry there. Slip of the eye. I missed the link. My fault.

Thanx every. I think I will manage.
I hope you also learned something from all of my questions.



!-)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No problem.

Good luck.

[Lutefisk]

Falco,

That looks like a standard 10" cartridge filter canister. Unless you have a very small system I don't recommend it.

The canister filter in this thread: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...g&pagenumber=1
Is several times larger.

Consider this. If you are running 20ml/min (a slow drip) just how quickly will the volume of that canister turn over? (Particularly if much of it is filled with media).

Part of the trick to disolving the media (the actual goal) is to give the water enough time to disolve a significant quantity of it.

If your reaction chamber is too small you will end up putting very little calcium and alkalinity into your system in relationship to the CO2.

At a given pH just so much calcium carbonate will dissolve. It takes time to dissolve. So, if you are turning your volume over at too high of a rate you've managed to depress the pH by dissolving CO2 in it but haven't given enough time for enough media to dissolve to bring it near saturation at that pH.

Paul

[marilynrn711]

ok 3 wks out from tank change from 55 g to 90.

Is this anything to worry about
ca 390 salifert
alk 2.86 salifert
ph 8.3 salifert
nitrates - .5 -salifert
nitrites - .025 salifert
ammonia - 0 red seas
mg - 1350 salifert

I have been dosing with C - balance to try to get the levels up a bit. In fact dosing the max daily for about 3 days 45 ml for a 90 g tank. Before dosed 25 ml. It doesnt seem to make any difference and in fact levels have dropped a bit.

Hope I dont have to go the Ca reactor route right now, as just got the new tank up and running.

Only sps is a frag acro and plate coral. Both are very small. Lots of snails and coraline algae is going crazy on the rock. Maybe tha is using up the Alk/Ca.

Should I keep dosing at this level?

[jdieck]

Originally posted by Falko
This is what our Soda Stream Bottle heads look like. I Suppose yours looks the same:



Do any of you know were online I can maybe order a fitting for this thing, and that will allow me to fine tune it for aquarium use?

Plus. Does it have any use to make the container of a see through material?

The fitting you are showing is not standard and has been designed to operate just with specific soda fountain equipment with an integrated regulator to it. As the valve is pin push type which will automatically open when the connector is screwed in it will be difficult to find or manufacture an adaptor.

I will suggest you visit your local welding supply (Either BOC or Air Liquide distributor) and describe to them your needs.

The cylinder you will look for has a valve integrated into it which will have the proper connector for your local regulator specifications. The most common connector types are the American Standard CGA 320 specified by the Cylinder Gas Asociation in North America. This is a 0.825 (13/16") 14 Thread per inch flat with packing connector, the European Standard (Which I think is the one used in South Africa) is established by the European Union led by the British Cylinder Gas Association which is similar to the CGA 320 but the connector diameter is 0.860".
Fo medical CO2 Cylinders the valve is one of indexed pin that uses a Yoke fitting to connect to the regulator.

Because a cylinder manufacture and testing has to meet Country and local regulations and requires proof of valid integrity hydrotesting and because the diferences in valves and connectors I will strongly advise you to get the bottle (and posibly the regulator) from the shop that will fill the CO2 for you.

If you buy a bottle and regulator out of E-Bay most probably you will acquire equipment specified for the US (CGA 320) which may not meet local regulations or the filler may not be set up to fill or service a diferent standard.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is this anything to worry about
ca 390 salifert
alk 2.86 salifert
ph 8.3 salifert
nitrates - .5 -salifert
nitrites - .025 salifert
ammonia - 0 red seas
mg - 1350 salifert

Looks OK to me.

What time of day was the pH measured? How long after the C-balance?

As long as you are appropriately monitoring calcium, alkalinity, and pH, there is no real limitation on how much C-balance you can use, if it really is needed.

[marilynrn711]

I checked about mid afternoon, before adding the c-balance.
Should I check afterwards too?