Why Is Nitrates Still High After All I Have Done?

[reefwisher]

I have a 40 Gal. Breeder tank that has a nitrate reading 20 ppm after a water change and climb up to 30-40 ppm after one week. My tank consist of a olitic sand bed of 2 1/4 inch which has air pockets and believe it is working for nitrate to nitrogenous gas. It has 30 lbs. of lace rock (was going to be a FO tank but decided to go reef) and 20 lbs live rocks and a Power filter with just Chemi-Pure nothing else. I also have a refugium with chaetomorpha algae which I harvest weekly down to about 2 softball size it double it size weekly. The refugium also has a 3 inch olitic sandbed and 5 lbs. of MIRACLE MUD with live rocks rubble in one corner of the fuge. I have the Aqua C Urchin skimmer that is set up to empty the collection cup daily. I had to go with this size of skimmer because of the footprint size for the fuge. I have a UV 9 watts steralizer and running a Kent Marine Nautilus phosphate reactor with montly changes of Phos-Ban gfo.My bio-load consist of 2 ocellaris clowns,1 royal gramma and a bi-color blenny,I have a clean-up crew of about 60 various snails and crabs and a tankfull of soft and lps corals. Softs are recordea,rhodactis,discosoma and zooanthus and 1 xenia and lps are 1 trachyphyillia,1 lobophyillia,1 acanthastrea and 2 fungia plate corals and 1 derassa clams. The corals I believe are doing well as 3 of my yuma recordea has propagated and the xenia has grown 4 times it size in 3 months and the lps are eating krill and looks good.My water parameter are ammonia 0,nitrite 0 Ph 8.0,Alk. 11.2 dKh,Calcium 420-440 and salinity 1.0025. I have been doing weekly water changes of 15-20% since this past August and the nitrate stays the same. It hasn't even change when I added more corals. The water I use is Culligan RO water and I tested it for nitrate with my API SALTWATER KIT and it tested 0. The TDS tested 0 on their TDS meter which their meter read 0 between 0-9 then 10 and on up. So I know it at least 9-0. The feeding of my fish are once a day of pellets and only enough to feed them and what left the clean-up crew get and what go down the overflow get caught in the filter mesh bag and cleaned out after feeding everyday. The corals are fed PhytoPlan once a week, night before water change about 1/8 tsp. and the Lps are fed frozen krill once a week. What is keeping this nitrate up? Is it the lace rocks not fully established into live rocks? Not big enough protein skimmer for my bio-load? Tank still maturing,it is 10 months old and the coraline algae is growing very well. Also there is no foam sponge or bio-balls. Any ideas why my nitrates are up and can help me get it lowered will be greatly appreciated. I would really be happy if I could just get it to 5-10ppm and less if possiable. I really don't want to use a de-nitrator just want to find the problems.

[Sk8r]

This is a bit of a poser, and I'm going to go out on a limb and suspect the miracle mud, since it's the only thing in there I'm not familiar with...and it is live, and may have some dieoff.
If your cheato is growing that fast it's pulling a lot of phosphate---this is GOOD, but it's not good to have that much phosphate.

What test are you useing and are you sure of your test?

Do you have any carbon bag in there that is older than 4 days? They can start contributing to nitrate in time.

Your sandbed is way shallow: I'd up that to 3-4" to let it layer bacteria a bit: that would help with nitrate processing.

Lace rock. Not the sort that's red and white, I hope: [metal]...rather the gray stuff? No volcanics: [metals.] I can't believe there ARe metals if you have good growth.

I'm just wondering about that nitrate test. Do you have the same reading at your lfs?

[reefwisher]

I am using the API SALWATER TEST KIT. I took my water sample to the lfs and his was the same as mine,he also was using the API. The only cabon type I am using is the CHEMI-PURE which I rinsed out about once a week and replaced every 2 month. The lace rock I am using is the grey type. I have often thought about the sand bed depth. Is it to late to add sand to the bed? I read an article written by Bob Goeman and he stated that a sand bed of 2 inches was sufficient so I thought I was alright with that.

[kiran523]

You may want to look into a remote DSB

[Sk8r]

Not at all too late: add about a cup of washed sand every 3 days until you are satisfied. Get a widemouthed funnel and clamp on enough fat hose to reach the bottom of your tank, and dump. That way it gets to the bottom without spreading out all over your specimens. I don't know about 2 inches. I know my tank greatly improved once I settled my sandbed at about 3 1/2 inches [I had too potent a pump and wandering sand]. I know it operates by layers like a torte cake, different species of bacteria at each depth, and you wonder if at 2" it has enough room for enough layers.

But chemipure is carbon, right? That would rouse my suspicion. Most carbon instructs you to change it every 4-5 days, because of this trick carbon has of first starting to leach back into the tank everything it once removed, and then of becoming a nitrate factory itself---sort of like fine-grade bioballs.

[reefwisher]

I will take the Chemi-Pure out and take a nitrate test in a few days. I will also be adding more sands to my tank. I would like to get it to 3 inches. Thanks for your help.

[reefwisher]

The package says to rinse the sand first is this necessary if so the sand cake up when wet and probably won't slide down the funnel. Might have to put it in a cup and pour right on to the sand bed directly slowly.

[Sk8r]

LEt the sand sun-dry after rinsing to make sure it does slide. You can do it via a cup or ziplock bag...but do rinse! Otherwise it clouds up your tank until you can filter all the rock dust out, and it's bad for the corals, who get the dust in their pores.

[aaron7405]

have you test your make up water before do your water changes? I had same problem until I buougth a RO/DI unit. I get tire to cahnging water weekly (bottle water) and be fustrating for the nitrates never to get down.
Now the incoming water is 0 nitrates and my tank readings are now at 1 (salifet test kit) after 3 weeks.

[bertoni]

I'm skeptical that the sandbed is going to do much. Even at three inches, it's very shallow. How much food is going into the system? Whether the fish eat it all or not is less important than the quantity, since most of what goes into the fish is going to come back out.

[reefwisher]

I feel that the food I am putting in is very little to as to not raise the nitrate but also understand to what you are saying. I have thought about what you are all saying this evening and thought about for a starter is to take out the CHEMI-PURE and test in a few days and add sands to my refugium since it has 3 inches up to 3 1/2 to 4 inches. Does this sound good are not? Let me know if you feel different. Thanks

[Spuds725]

How big is the fuge?? If it is decent sized, you don't have to trim it down to "two softball size" balls--- let it fill or almost fill the fuge and then trim back about 1/3 to 1/2 of it...

[reefwisher]

The section I have the chaeto in is 12" X 12". Letting the chaeto grow more,will have to try this too.

[3fins]

reefwisher, when you have your frozen food, do you rinse it before adding it to the tank?

[reefwisher]

The most I use frozen food is once a week and that rare, normal times I use the frozen food is once every 2-3 weeks. I haven't been rinsing it,I use very little, didn't think it would effect the nitrates that much. But I will start rinsing it though.

[KCZoanthid]

You indicated that you are using pellets to feed the fish. Not sure which brand. I would try switching to frozen foods. I always hear stories about pellets having phosphates in them.

I think a sand bed needs to be either 1" or 5" Either go for the bare bottom with just a bit of sand for looks--or do it all the way and do a DSB. I'm using a 5" DSB in my tank and a 5" DSB in my refugium. I have zero nitrates and I feed heavily--everyday.

Check operation of your skimmer to be sure it is working as efficiently as possible. It may be pulling out skimmate, but could it do more? I noticed that my air intake tube becomes clogged with salt creep in about a week if I leave it alone. I use a turkey baster filled with RO water and squirt it into the intake tube every other day. The RO water washes the salt creep out of the tube and allows for maximum air intake. Good air intake means lotsa bubbles. More bubbles means better skimming.

Skimming more organics out of your water column might help.

[Guygettnby]

i would try checking your nitrate level with a different test kit. i have the API test kit and it tells me that my nitrates are 160PPM+ in all of my tanks. so i took some water to my LFS and had them test it and they used 4 different test kits. The API kit read the same as mine and the rest read from 20ppm-60ppm wich is still high but was better then what i was reading with my API kit.

salifet is the best from what i have heard. try using that kit before you go all out on other things. but carbon filter bags are bad....when i took mine outa my tank and just started using filter pads and carbon every other filter change my nitrates droped about half! they defilently leak back into the tank and breed nitrates!!

[mysterybox]

Originally posted by bertoni
I'm skeptical that the sandbed is going to do much. Even at three inches, it's very shallow. How much food is going into the system? Whether the fish eat it all or not is less important than the quantity, since most of what goes into the fish is going to come back out.

I would suggest you "take a deep breath", and start answering questions that the moderator is asking so he can assist you!

[reefwisher]

I took the Chemi-Pure out, so will see now in a few days. I am going to buy a different test kit, will be salifert.

[Mavrk]

How old is your tank? Your experiencse says 5 years marine and 5 months reef. So is this a converted tank or is this only 5 months old?

A 2" sand bed most likely won't convert nitrate to nitrogen. 4-6" is usually recommended for this purpose. Of course that is a DSB which some will say to avoid. Personally I am doing DSB as well, but this is the first time I have tried it.

One more question is how was the tank cycled and was the LR cured or uncured (I guess that is two questions)?

[reefwisher]

the reef tank is set up new, no conversion. The tank was cycled using Stability which is a bacteria starter and the LR were cured.

[Mavrk]

API is a good test kit. The fact that your nitrates increase in the week shows that the problem is not the test kit (although it is possible that the levels are not as high as you think... always good to check it against another test kit). Let us know what the tests show after removing the chemi-pure.

[Mavrk]

Originally posted by reefwisher
Tank still maturing,it is 10 months old and the coraline algae is growing very well.

Sorry, I didn't see this line.

What does your new water test at before you add it to the tank (I think someone asked this earlier and it is a good question)?

[saltycreefer]

Do a few consecutive water changes until your nitrate drops. What's the issue?