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#1
08/11/2007, 04:15 PM
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The Korallen Zucht Revolution or Regression?
 http://www.fragfarmer.com/Korallen-Z...r-S-p-958.html I am concerned about something, maybe some others can provide more info, or take action if I am correct. The new KZ revolution skimmers... seem to have pretty good performance for some. No doubt about it, they have marketed their 'revolutionary' skimmer very well and it has had a warm welcome by many. There are many threads on them at Zeovit.com for instance. You can see pics of the injector here: http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthr...t=9231&page=16 http://www.korallen-zucht.de/en/shop...ers/index.html My concern isnt in its performance... that is a seperate thread. But my concern is about the utility patent that has been entered for this skimmer in Germany : DE202007000286U1 at http://www.dpma.de/index.htm Now, to me, the KZ skimmer is no more than a beckett skimmer with a cone shape body (and a very expensive one at that). The cone shape body is used by ATB, and the new ATI BM300 seems similar. So I would hardly consider the cone shaped body a patentable concept, not to mention, every skimmer on the market uses a cone shape at some point in the body... to distinguish at what point this would be a patent would seem impossible. I could simply make the entire body a cone shape, but as long as I use a cylinder for the bottom few inches, or change something slightly, I could claim it to be totally different. Those who have taken apart their 'revolutionary plankton friendly injector' have found nothing but a beckett copy inside. Great, good for them... but what is to patent then? They claim its 'not a Beckett'... well then... it sure looks like one!!! So wouldnt beckett sue for the copy then? And for those who dont think Im on to something... if you look at the details of the patent application, you will find a diagram of a beckett skimmer, ala PM, MRC, or Barr, in the description itself!!! It seems to me that KZ made a fancier, much more expensive version of a beckett, and now they are trying to patent them in Germany. That would mean MRC, PM, etc... no more in Germany, and most likely, the rest of the EU it seems. Will they be patenting it in the US then (have they applied already?) They could very well be patenting the beckett skimmer so nobody else could make them anymore. What do you guy think?
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein Last edited by hahnmeister; 08/11/2007 at 04:35 PM. |
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#2
08/11/2007, 04:52 PM
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I think you are correct, it appears to be a cone shaped beckett skimmer to me. I do not see how that could be copyrighted because if it could wouldn't someone else have done so by now? The skimmers look nice (although I am not a big fan of orange acrylic, but it does not really matter) and some reviews have good performance, but man they are expensive for what they are. I will stick with Orcas and DAS for now..................
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#3
08/11/2007, 06:37 PM
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Well, I dont care to compare their performance here, but yes, I agree... a beckett is 'public knowledge' so it would not be able to be patented.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#5
08/11/2007, 07:18 PM
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Beckett isn't the only company that makes foam heads that work as skimmer injectors. There are several that look and operate similarly. I think they would have to prove the venturi was invented by them first. Which it wasn't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect |
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#6
08/11/2007, 11:09 PM
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No, they arent the only company that makes a venturi, but they do have a patent on that style of foaming head, just like Mazzei has a patent on their type of venturi/mixing eductor.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#7
08/11/2007, 11:45 PM
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They do? Can you put a number on that? (Not the Mazzei)
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#8
08/11/2007, 11:55 PM
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Yes i agree. Kz looks diff. And very well made, as far as performance goes, i think it has a very small reaction chamber and cone right into the neck so there is a limitation here for more bubbles could be made by the pump before turbulent occurs. How much air and water does this kz pull? Any one knows. I think bk still be a better skimmer.
Loc |
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#9
08/12/2007, 01:08 PM
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loc01,
Quote:
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#10
08/12/2007, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
James
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Old Reefers Never Die, they just...join the crew! |
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#12
08/12/2007, 02:05 PM
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...there are pictures of a taiwan lfs running two of them in a sump, this was a few years ago on a foreign BB.
hahn, you may want to post pics of the link of the becket mod thread here on RC. they are expensive....but so is thermo molding to get that cone piece made. unless you can find a company that already has a simmilar mold or what you're looking for it can get pricey for small numbers.....you can go the cheap route and have a seam on the side too... also, i thought klaus claimed he was the first for the cone skimmer?
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red|house|blog "i like bubbly, and i love animals - so it works out well" "there are a lot of people out there who think they have a modern house simply because they have alot of steel in it" |
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#13
08/12/2007, 02:26 PM
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I will say that I also find it very disturbing when companies abuse the patent process to try and restrict competition as this invariably reduces innovation. The best example here is what that excuse-of-a-company Sunlight Supply tried to do by threatening IceCap ( a stellar company, by the way) over T-5 reflectors late last year.
James
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Old Reefers Never Die, they just...join the crew! |
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#14
08/13/2007, 06:16 AM
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http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthr...t=9231&page=20
Well, it looks like they edited my questions to Mr. Pohl a few times. I suppose zeovit doesnt like it when I make my questions too 'challenging' for their sponsor's marketing claims. From what I can gather, the beckett head is no longer patented (or part of their main production line), but I will call beckett tomorrow and ask about this. Regardless, I still find it disturbing that what KZ is trying to do is pretty much just patent a fancy shaped beckett skimmer. My main concern lies in the idea that they could try to get a US patent... in which case, Barr, MRC, Trigger, Reef Concepts, and other beckett makers should keep close tabs on the patent process because this may be an attempt like SLS made on Icecap. That is my main concern. And since Mr. Pohl wont respond to my other questions on their forum, Ill ask them here, and maybe he can come over and respond. So lets talk about the KZ skimmers with regards to performance after all! One of the main claims of the KZ skimmer is how it is 'plankton friendly'. Well, its been published by many authors that in a captive setting, almost all the phytoplankton in a reef system exist within the sand and rock due to the heavy filtration and turnover in a captive system... From this page: http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthr...?t=9227&page=2 'As per "The Reef Aquarium vol.3" by Delbeek and Sprung... "We do not agree with the assertation that centrifugal pumps should not be used because they harm plankton populations. We acknowledge that this point has some merit because pressure, shear, and turbulence inside some centrifugal pumps can kill a percentage of the phytoplankton and zooplankton that actually passes through the pump. One type of centrifugal pump was demonstrated to kill 90% of Artemia salina (brine shrimp) on a recirculating experimental set-up (Adey and Loveland, 1991). Brine shrimp are not the type of plankton found in reef aquariums, however, and reef aquariums are not exactly like small recirculating systems. Reef aquariums have a great deal of substrate heterogeneity, and much of the plankton generated in the system remains in the system around the substrates. It does not pass through the pumps." So these skimmers have one huge benefit... one that we dont need. We need to suppliment the coral's diet with cultured/frozen plankton anyways, and when we do this, we can just as easily turn off the pumps and skimmer while the corals feed. Thats plankton friendly IMO.' And since the KZ uses a modified beckett-like injector (perhaps its a clone, but it still performs in a similar manner), then all beckett skimmers should have this 'unique feature'... no? http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthr...ed=1#post97456 And if they are beckett-like skimmers, then arent their capacity claims a bit off? I mean, come on... the S model is over $1000 at frag farmer (the price is the only spec that says it will handle a 400g tank), is 8" in diameter at the base and 24" tall. Because its a cone, its a bit of an optical illusion though... the overall volume of the skimmer is only that of a 6" diameter cylinder, and if you consider that the larger area is at the bottom for sorting, its pretty much identical to a US-style 'black box' beckett with a 5" diameter neck... hardly enough to justify the 400g rating, even with the fancy cone shape. The pump that feeds it is a Aquabee 2000/1. Now, this pump is a higher pressure version of the 2000, but still, its a pump that as a needlewheel only pulls about 500lph (Ive seen 720 listed when its a threadwheel). This pump must only make about 400lph of air at most on this skimmer. Pohl's response is that the 'amount of air isnt everything'. Now, that, I agree with to some extent, but I dont care what you do with only 400lph of air... its not skimming a 400g tank even with a 6' tall body, a bubble plate, and a cone shaped body! There are some on this forum, like Oliver from ATI, whose beliefs about air/water interface indicate that the amount of air IS everything. Now, there may be some science to how a beckett's method of air induction makes it slightly more effective than a needlewheel... perhaps the mechanical mixing by an electric motor causes some ionic changes or something... or perhaps some sort of change happens with the magnetic field of the pump... who knows... but there is something there... sure. But enough to justify a rating 4x that of a DAS EX-1 or Deltec APF600? Those two skimmers share the same technical specs as the KZ rev S model BTW (height, volume, pump)... only they have more air throughput.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#15
08/13/2007, 09:31 AM
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Hahn let's patent the threadwheel, and then our own cone shaped body. then lets give it a fancy european name (eurotrash i like that) and sell it for $2500. How does this sound as a marketing campaign, "Old world craftsmanship melded with undoubtable technical advancement". we'll add the amount of time you and I have been alive and then say over blank years experience!
man i thought asm bloated their capacity ratings!!! |
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#17
08/13/2007, 09:44 AM
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dont expect the kz-bk site, oops i mean zeovit, to actually allow lucid logical conversation about anything they sell at captive oceans, they only sell the finest of all reef gear and dont you DARE suggest otherwise...
look at the last post on the page... http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthr...t=10123&page=3 i also like how now the kz skimmer is "better" than the bk now because captive oceans is no longer the sole american importer of bk....how predictable is that??? lol |
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#20
08/13/2007, 10:44 AM
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Wow hahn, they banned you! I thought Z.com was suppose to be a "friendly forum" and now they ban you for questioning their products. That sure is a friendly forum, only to the ones who praise KZ.
Don't give up hahn, I'm sure you'll find some more interesting news on the beckett clone..I mean the KZ Revolution. 
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ReefRockerLive's water chemistry: Is on the road to recovery! Everything looks nice though ;) |
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#21
08/13/2007, 10:48 AM
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 patents are neer worthless these days anyways...I hold one and it didn't stop k-mart from copying the idea and getting their own patents via a lawyers re-wording....... your better off with the $75 application for the patent and making your money off it in the first year before you get copied by chinese reverse engineering. To me this looks like another rebadge money maker.
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______________________________ Colorado is sweet. I'm always down to go to the MJ My Turbo Honda -> Click little red house. Friends don't let friends buy from Front Range Aquatics |
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#22
08/13/2007, 10:56 AM
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unneccessary patent litigation costs money. and a "big" company like k-mart or K-Z, lol, can afford to go to court. patenting something that your competetor invented is a real racket
do you know that Creative has the patent on IPOD software interface so that is why the IPhone is marketed with mac osx. creative sued them so apple now has to pay creative a cut off of each ipod or they had to settle and pay creative for something they created. |
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#23
08/13/2007, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Mavgi asked me about the origins of this particular skimmer few months back and he should have more info on it. |
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#25
08/13/2007, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
I don't think Mr. Pohl has the time or the inclination to answer all of your interesting questions. As he said before the only and best way to test the perfomance of this skimmer is to connect it to your tank and see for yourself how well it works. I am sorry that you have been banned from the Zeo forum because I feel that an open discussion is always best. In any case I will keep you posted on my experience with this skimmer and hope that you will keep an open mind. greetz jw
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waiting for the next monti eating nudi generation........ |
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