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  #1  
Old 07/08/2007, 08:23 PM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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Ethical question. Help please.

I am trying to show that the Elegance coral problem is due to lighting. To prove this I would need to film an Elegance as it swells up and withdraws its tentacles when a bright light is placed over it. In doing so I will most likely be killing the coral. I have 2 questions.
(1) Would doing this be the responsible thing to do?
(2) Would doing this prove that the problem is a lighting issue or would people still find a way to say that protozoans are to blame?
  #2  
Old 07/09/2007, 11:56 AM
greenbean36191 greenbean36191 is offline
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1) Well, it's not unethical assuming you have significant reason to think that doing the experiment will solve the problem. If someone asked me to help them with this experiment, which almost assured the subject was going to die, I wouldn't let them do it unless they could provide some physiological explanation of what might be going on and what evidence they have that it's happening in this case. For example what are some possible mechanisms that account for the changes the lighting has on the coral and what leads you to believe that a specific one of them is the cause in this case rather than protozoans?

Without a clearly defined causal mechanism it's hard to design a good test or measure results.

2) It would do very little to rule out other causes. You would have to show that even without possible pathogens you can manipulate the lighting and cause the problem to occur or that the pathogens in the absence of the lighting issue don't cause the problem. Both are hard to do with an unknown pathogen. Also, like I mentioned before I would want to know a testable physiological explanation before I was totally convinced.
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  #3  
Old 07/09/2007, 05:04 PM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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Thanks for the reply.
First let me explain that I am no biologist. I don't own a large lab where I can do research into what's going on with these corals on a cellular level. Most likely I wouldn't know what I was looking at if I did. I am just a hobbyist that has been doing this for a very long time, especially with Elegance corals.

What I can prove is that a relatively healthy Elegance will do fine if kept in a lower light environment with temps below 80. The same relatively healthy coral will begin to swell up and withdraw its tentacles if exposed to bright lights or high temps. This is the only time that an Elegance will show this posture. After the exposure the coral will no longer be healthy. Even after being returned to the cool low light environment it will begin to withdraw and stop feeding. If the exposure was severe enough the coral will not survive. Infection will set in and the coral will die. The swollen polyp and shrunken tentacles in NOT contagious. The only time an Elegance becomes contagious is after an infection sets in. Any infection in a closed system can be contagious.

What I believe, but am unable to prove, is that these deep water Elegance corals are suffering the same effects as a coral that has bleached. The only difference is that in many cases they do not discharge their algae. I believe the cells within the coral are being damaged by the excess O2 produced by their algae. This is the same tissue damage we see in corals that have bleached. Once the tissue is damaged they become susceptible to many organisms that feed on dead or dieing animal tissue.

My hope is that if people know what causes this swollen polyp and shrunken tentacles symptom, and understand the damage it can cause, they will be able to intervene and save the coral before it's to late. As it stands people believe a protozoan is causing this problem and there in nothing they can do about it.

It has taken me a year and a half to get to this point. I have been working with live corals and placing them in many different environments in the hopes of finding a way to keep them alive. I can do this now and I am trying to show others how to do it. The only way to do this is to convince people that a killer protozoan is not to blame, and like you said, this will not be easy to do.

So, should I go through with the video? Would it help if I did?
  #4  
Old 07/09/2007, 05:11 PM
Sk8r Sk8r is offline
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Personally I find it a very interesting idea. We used to find elegance a very easy coral, among all the others that were not---now we keep these other corals very easily, but lose the elegance. Two things are different in the tank I use now, vs. the one I used when elegance were easy. The old tank used a wet dry filter; and it had high output fluorescents with actinics; now I use 250 mh. Haven't gotten an elegance, because of the warnings, but if it requires a shady spot, as bubble coral does, that would certainly be interesting information.
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  #5  
Old 07/09/2007, 07:53 PM
greenbean36191 greenbean36191 is offline
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If you've got experience showing that they do fine in low light and decline if moved to high light and you can find a few people that have seen the same thing then it might be worth doing some preliminary tests.

What I would do is set up two small, simple, identical tanks under one lighting fixture. I would tape something opaque on the walls so light doesn't spill from one tank to the other and then to control the light level I would put layers of window screen on the top of the tank. After a few months with both in low light, assuming no change in health, take a layer or two of screen off of one tank and see if you get the problem in that coral. If the results are what you predicted then I would repeat the experiment at least once more.

Make sure you log any info that may be relevant- parameters, changes in appearance, any differences between tanks, etc.

Obviously it's not an entirely convincing experiment but it's fairly cheap and easy and if you can repeat it with predictable results it's a start.

Only if that experiment turned out well would I even worry about the role of secondary infection.
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  #6  
Old 07/10/2007, 10:57 AM
hankthetank hankthetank is offline
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Elegance while I would never tell you not to try to learn something of such great value,I must say that back in the good old days of Elegance Corals around 1990 I raised an Elegance from about a 1.5" skeleton to one over 6" in about a year in a 30 gal XH with a 175 MH on top.At the time I didn't realize the significance of its skeletal shape so I had it wedged in the rock about 2/3 of the way up the rock wall on the back glass....ugh!
Anyway this guy was within a foot of the 6500*K bulb and did just wonderfully until the ac broke and I came home to a 90*+ tank full of bouillabaise.Admittedly I can't remember how the temps ran but I would guess there was considerable variation over the course of the time I had the coral.Something you might wish to consider.....
  #7  
Old 07/10/2007, 11:48 AM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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I got my first Elegance about 18 years ago. I kept it about 1 foot from a 250W 5500 K MH, two actinic 110W VHO's , and two 40W actinics. The filter system was in my garage, so the temp would climb very high. I too kept in on the rocks and it grew into a ledgond in this area. Here is a pic of it while it was still growing.



Things have changed since the good old days. The shallow water corals we were getting back then have been all but fished out. Today they are diving much deeper to collect these corals. It is my belief that these deeper water corals are utilizing a different clad of algae than the shallow water corals. This seems to be where our problems are coming from. If I were to place one of these newer Elegance corals in the same environment as the pic above, it wouldn't last a day. Through the course of my research into this problem, I have been forced to disregard my previous understanding of the requirements for this coral. While they are still the same animal, they come from very different environments and have very different needs.
  #8  
Old 07/10/2007, 02:38 PM
hankthetank hankthetank is offline
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Sounds like a good enough reason to try your experiment to me.Please keep us updated on your progress if you choose to move forward!
  #9  
Old 07/10/2007, 05:51 PM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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I'm pretty sure I'm going to do it. I posted the question here to make sure it was the right thing to do. After I make the video I will post it in the LPS forum.
  #10  
Old 07/12/2007, 03:23 AM
Peter Eichler Peter Eichler is offline
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A few problems I have with the posibility of intense light being the issue... The corals were considered hardy when many of us were using MH lighting with bulbs that are still some of the highest par of any bulbs on the market. The problems with this coral started happening when PC lights were very popular. Many people still use various types of fluorescent lighting today and experience the same problems with Elegance coral.

Perhaps more Elegance are collected from deeper water now, but they're hardly a deep water species and collections still occur from a variety of conditions and locations. However, even most of the shallow water areas where they are collected from are areas with turbid waters and they are often shaded by seagrass. At first you might think that supports you hypothsis that it's the light. However, my point is that they've always been collected from areas with lower levels of light and at one point in this hobby they did quite well when kept under bright metal hallides. Plus, as I already pointed out, they started dying with regularity even when kept under relatively dim PC lighting.

When I look at the average reef tank today compared to the average reeg tank 15 years ago I see two major differences. Those differences would be the use of much greater flow and the use or more efficient protein skimmers and other forms of nutrient export. Yes lighting has changed, but it's more spectral than it is intensity wise IMO. If you decide to go forward regardless of what feedback you get, perhaps take those other two factors into account since these corals come from higher nutrient areas with relatively calm water.
  #11  
Old 07/12/2007, 07:50 AM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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This is why I'm unsure of making the video. I have seen this reaction over and over again with my corals, so i know what the corals reaction will be when I intensify the lighting. I want to make the video to show others what this reaction is. If I tell people in advance what will happen, then show them a video of it taking place, and document the corals decline after the fact, I would think this would show that lighting is to blame. If, after witnessing this for themselves, people still believe there is some other cause for this problem, I have just killed an Elegance for no reason. I take the lives of these corals very seriously, not to mention the time and money involved. If people learn that the over inflated oral disk and shrunken tentacles are a direct affect of light exposure, fallowed by serious tissue damage. The video will be a worthwhile project.
Will killing this one coral save the lives of many others? If not, there is no reason for me to make such a video.
  #12  
Old 07/12/2007, 02:20 PM
Peter Eichler Peter Eichler is offline
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The thing is, the extended oral disk and shrunken tentacles is just a response to stress, it has always happened with these corals. The difference is, back in the day it usually went away when you remove the stressors.

Documenting the death of a coral that is know to almost always die is a tough thing to do since you could pick any random thing to blame and it would look like the cause. You almost need to have this Elegance coral for 6+ months and prove that it's healthy when you move it up, then show a rapid decline upon you moving it up. Even then I can show you the same results with corals that are typically hardy but don't like intense light.

Last edited by Peter Eichler; 07/12/2007 at 03:02 PM.
  #13  
Old 07/12/2007, 05:05 PM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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I'm sorry, and I honestly hate to disagree with you, but you are mistaken. The over inflated oral disk and shrunken tentacles is not merely a reaction to stress. This symptom has not been around from the beginning. Elegance corals natural response to stress is to withdraw. Elevated Nitrates or phosphates, abuse from tank mates, inappropriate lighting, flow, or temp are all examples of stress that will cause a normal healthy coral (like the corals of old) to withdraw. This is a relatively new symptom. If this were a common reaction to stress the scientific community and the reef gods would not have been so confused by it. There have been many studies into its cause. This is how they found organisms feeding on dead and dieing tissue. They made a huge leap and claimed that these organisms were to blame for this symptom. They were wrong. These organisms are a secondary reaction to the symptom that is caused by the same stresses that cause bleaching. Instead of bleaching these deep water corals are swelling up and withdrawing their tentacles when exposed to bright light and/or high temps. After the exposure the coral will have the same damaged tissues we see in corals that have bleached. Why these deep water corals are not discharging their algae is beyond me. I have seen this reaction over and over again during the past year and a half. There is no doubt in my mind that this is the problem we are having with these corals. My only problem is figuring out how to prove to others that this is the case. I can understand why the fact that I can keep these corals alive, and nurse them back to health when others can't, is not proof enough to show the cause of the problem. I am not clairvoyant, so if I show people on video an Elegance that appears half way healthy, tell them that within moments of being exposed to bright light it will begin to swell up and it does. Then tell people this will be fallowed by a rapid decline in health, and show proof that it is, does this not prove anything? I could repeat this scenario 100 time with the same results each time. If such a video would not convince people of the incredible damage that is being caused while their Elegance is swelling up, what will? Every second that an Elegance remains swollen results in more tissue damage. To avoid this damage the coral must not be exposed to bright light or elevated temps. There has got to be a way for me to convince others of this fact.
  #14  
Old 07/12/2007, 05:38 PM
Peter Eichler Peter Eichler is offline
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Take a look at the photo about half way through the article, Elegance corals often respond to various stressors in that manner.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/3/aafeature

If it's bright lighting then explain to me why people with PC and and various fuorescent lights have the same problems? I believe lighting may be a factor, but it's not any where close to be the main cause of this corals decline. Why do you keep calling them deep water corals? They're no more deep water than your average Acropora...

Last edited by Peter Eichler; 07/12/2007 at 05:43 PM.
  #15  
Old 07/12/2007, 07:01 PM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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I have seen the article. The person writing the article states that the two pics of the Elegance corals swelling up are caused by different influences. How does he/she know this? There is absolutely no evidence presented to support such a statement.
Your article shows what I mean by deep water corals. They state that these corals were photographed from between 98 and 114 feet. To me this is deep water. I'm not an SPS person, but I am not aware of many Acropora that live at these depths. The available light at these depths is far different than the light at 5 or 10 feet where the corals of old were coming from. As far as PC lighting is concerned, light is light. It does not matter if it comes from the sun, PC"s, MH, T5's, or the lamps in the room. If the level of light crosses the threshold of that which the coral can withstand it will begin to swell up, no matter where the light came from. If I open the blinds in my aquarium room my Elegance corals will begin to swell.
  #16  
Old 07/12/2007, 11:44 PM
Peter Eichler Peter Eichler is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by elegance coral
I have seen the article. The person writing the article states that the two pics of the Elegance corals swelling up are caused by different influences. How does he/she know this? There is absolutely no evidence presented to support such a statement.
Your article shows what I mean by deep water corals. They state that these corals were photographed from between 98 and 114 feet. To me this is deep water. I'm not an SPS person, but I am not aware of many Acropora that live at these depths. The available light at these depths is far different than the light at 5 or 10 feet where the corals of old were coming from. As far as PC lighting is concerned, light is light. It does not matter if it comes from the sun, PC"s, MH, T5's, or the lamps in the room. If the level of light crosses the threshold of that which the coral can withstand it will begin to swell up, no matter where the light came from. If I open the blinds in my aquarium room my Elegance corals will begin to swell.
The evidence to support it is that I've seen hundreds of Elegance corals puff up like that due to various stressors long before the Elegance became a difficult species.

SPS corals occur in a very wide range of conditions and depths, but I'm not going to start calling them a deep water coral just because they occur at 100 ft. Regardless, it states very clearly in that article that Elegance corals are collected at various depths in varying conditions. Even if a majority of them are collected from deeper water now, wouldn't that mean that the ones collected in shallow water that receive more light would have a greater success rate? The shallow water specimens occur in turbid waters but I would bet that the light they're receiving is more intense than the average PC light over the average reef tank. However, we're seeing this species die over and over again regardless of where it was collected and what lighting conditions it occured in and is kept in. You don't think plenty of people have tried to keep them in shady areas in their tanks over the past 20 years?

I'm not coming after you by any means, nor am I trying to discourage you. I'm just having a healthy debate and providing my perspective on the situation.
  #17  
Old 07/13/2007, 05:43 AM
paulhines paulhines is offline
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Most reef keepers and readers here, while not professionally trained scientists will start to think like a scientist when pushed. You should "argue" as one.

I am not very familiar with elegance corals and the problems associated with keeping them, but reading this thread is very intriging.

To reach and suggest your theory effectively to the largest audience, I would suggest being as scientific in your approach as you possibly can. I would do things in this order:

1. State your theory
2. Search the liturature for as much related information as you can find. Read, summarize each article and series of articles. Look for stuff that supports and opposes your theory.
3. With all this in mind, design an experiment that will test your theory. Spend a lot of time here, looking for ways to eliminate variables (someone suggested several already). Think about the biases you have and make sure they're dealt with. I'd approach a professional(s) for help at this point. Ask others to critique your thoughts now... as much as they can... and deal with it.
4. Define the exact things you want to measure and why. Run your test. Collect all the data you can, water parameters, origin and history of the corals, lighting type and intensity. Document everything (video included)
5. Collect and analyze and discuss your results. What went right, what suprised you, how you would do things differently next time.
6. Go back to your theory. Did your test support or oppose it. Do you want to alter it in any way? (that's okay). Discuss everything.
7. State a conclusion.

Science is done in layers. All this will take time. You have a noble purpose and a passion for these corals. I suggest you do this (or something similar) and make a contribution. If you do it well, others will hone the theory, repeat the tests, and eventually solve this problem.

I love this hobby!
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  #18  
Old 07/13/2007, 09:04 AM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Eichler
The evidence to support it is that I've seen hundreds of Elegance corals puff up like that due to various stressors long before the Elegance became a difficult species.

SPS corals occur in a very wide range of conditions and depths, but I'm not going to start calling them a deep water coral just because they occur at 100 ft. Regardless, it states very clearly in that article that Elegance corals are collected at various depths in varying conditions. Even if a majority of them are collected from deeper water now, wouldn't that mean that the ones collected in shallow water that receive more light would have a greater success rate? The shallow water specimens occur in turbid waters but I would bet that the light they're receiving is more intense than the average PC light over the average reef tank. However, we're seeing this species die over and over again regardless of where it was collected and what lighting conditions it occured in and is kept in. You don't think plenty of people have tried to keep them in shady areas in their tanks over the past 20 years?

I'm not coming after you by any means, nor am I trying to discourage you. I'm just having a healthy debate and providing my perspective on the situation.
I can respect your point of view, even if I don't agree with it. The reef gods are telling everyone that the problem is killer protozoans, so I have to face the fact that what I'm saying will be met with a great deal of scepticism. You are not the first person to disagree with me and I'm sure you wont be the last.

I think my writing has been a little confusing. I'm not calling Elegance corals in general deep water corals. I am trying to make a distinction between the corals collected in deep waters and those collected in shallow water. Where there is no need to dive to these great depths to collect these corals we are not seeing these problems. The Australian Elegance corals seem to be just as healthy as the corals of old. It has been proven that there are many different clads of zooxanthellae that are better suited to different environments. It is my belief that this is the root of our problem. I believe that in order for these corals to survive at these greater depths they need to utilize a different clad of algae than there shallow water relatives. In doing so they are not well adapted to brighter lights. The breakdown in the symbiotic relationship between the coral and its algae occurs at a much lower light level in these deep water Elegance corals. When exposed to brighter lights the coral begins to swell up and withdraw its tentacles. As this takes place the cell walls within the coral are being damaged. The longer and more intense the exposure the more damage thats caused.
I didn't just wake up one day and say, "I think this is the problem." In the beginning I believed that protozoans were to blame. After working with many different individuals over the past year and a half and concentrating most of my free time on this project I have come to this conclusion. Everyone knows the dismal survival rates of this coral. I have a tank full of them. I'm not only able to keep them alive but I'm nursing them back to health. I just got 3 very ill corals from my LFS last week and they are doing much better now. It is through applying what I'm talking about here that I am able to do this. I am seeing more and more threads where people are reporting success by keeping these corals in lower light environments. I have people that contact me through PM's here on this sight and others to get advice on their Elegance corals and this seems to be going well. My hope is that as more and more people learn of whats causing this problem there will be more Elegance corals that survive.
  #19  
Old 07/13/2007, 08:46 PM
elegance coral elegance coral is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by paulhines
Most reef keepers and readers here, while not professionally trained scientists will start to think like a scientist when pushed. You should "argue" as one.

I am not very familiar with elegance corals and the problems associated with keeping them, but reading this thread is very intriging.

To reach and suggest your theory effectively to the largest audience, I would suggest being as scientific in your approach as you possibly can. I would do things in this order:

1. State your theory
2. Search the liturature for as much related information as you can find. Read, summarize each article and series of articles. Look for stuff that supports and opposes your theory.
3. With all this in mind, design an experiment that will test your theory. Spend a lot of time here, looking for ways to eliminate variables (someone suggested several already). Think about the biases you have and make sure they're dealt with. I'd approach a professional(s) for help at this point. Ask others to critique your thoughts now... as much as they can... and deal with it.
4. Define the exact things you want to measure and why. Run your test. Collect all the data you can, water parameters, origin and history of the corals, lighting type and intensity. Document everything (video included)
5. Collect and analyze and discuss your results. What went right, what suprised you, how you would do things differently next time.
6. Go back to your theory. Did your test support or oppose it. Do you want to alter it in any way? (that's okay). Discuss everything.
7. State a conclusion.

Science is done in layers. All this will take time. You have a noble purpose and a passion for these corals. I suggest you do this (or something similar) and make a contribution. If you do it well, others will hone the theory, repeat the tests, and eventually solve this problem.

I love this hobby!
Thanks Paul!
I have done most of what you suggest I do.

I posted my theory several months ago in the LPS forum. At the time I didn't fully understand what these corals were going through and thankfully I stated this in that theory. I will be posting an updated conclusion when I post the video of me killing an Elegance. I personally don't consider it a theory anymore.

I have read everything I can get my hands on about Elegance corals and have been doing so for a very long time. At this point it is very rare for me to read an article about Elegance corals and agree with everything that is said. This is a very misunderstood coral.

I have put a great deal of thought into the best way of Showing people what I have learned. This is one of the reasons I posted this thread. There are no experts I can go to though. For months now I have been all over the web telling people that the reef gods are wrong on this one. I have tried to explain that I have a great deal of respect for most of these people and what they do, but i doubt they would help me prove them wrong. It would be nice if Sprung or someone else would come out and say that they have done more research into this and discovered that their original theory was incorrect. I don't see this happening though.

I haven't been the best at documenting what I have been doing. Mostly due to technical difficulties. I am working on getting better in this area though. It is very hard for me to document where my test subjects are coming from. You know where I get many of my corals and I have no way of knowing where exactly they came from. I can only assume that they are coming from the same areas as most of the other Elegance corals in the states.

I have had to alter my theory many times from the beginning. I posted a thread called "Elegance coral Theory" in the LPS forum. It has evolved quite a bit. There were times when I was wrong. I'm not an egotistical person, so I don't mind being wrong in a case like this. When you are studying something that you cant pick up a text book and read about, it is easy to make incorrect assumptions. All of the scientific community has done it in this case so I don't feel to bad about the mistakes I have made along the way.

Thanks again for your input. I will fallow your advice and continue my work.

I love this hobby too !
 

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